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	<title>Comments on: The Most Important Church Planting Book I&#8217;ve Read (Isn&#8217;t About The Church)</title>
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	<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church</link>
	<description>Welcome. I&#039;m a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I&#039;m involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:32:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-574</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 00:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-574</guid>
		<description>Welcome back Ardell. it&#039;s good to have your comments here. 

Your comments about size are insightful. Essentially, decentralized organizations function through a currency of kinship rather than authoritarianism, which means they must remain small. It&#039;s basically a tribal form of organization. It&#039;s just not possible to govern relationally with more than a couple dozen people because that&#039;s about the extent of anyone&#039;s kinship circle. Consequently, genuine starfish organizations like those profiled in the book are typically networks of highly autonomous small groups. The house church movement in a variety of iterations is the best example in the church. Outside the church I&#039;d say A.A. is the best example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Welcome back Ardell. it&#8217;s good to have your comments here. </p>
<p>Your comments about size are insightful. Essentially, decentralized organizations function through a currency of kinship rather than authoritarianism, which means they must remain small. It&#8217;s basically a tribal form of organization. It&#8217;s just not possible to govern relationally with more than a couple dozen people because that&#8217;s about the extent of anyone&#8217;s kinship circle. Consequently, genuine starfish organizations like those profiled in the book are typically networks of highly autonomous small groups. The house church movement in a variety of iterations is the best example in the church. Outside the church I&#8217;d say A.A. is the best example.</p>
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		<title>By: ardell</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-572</link>
		<dc:creator>ardell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 23:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-572</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of a church with a decentralized leadership…yet, I’ve never actually seen one working (good or bad) – so it is hard for me to full understand how it would work in practicality (i.e. Who keeps the money? Sets the budget? Delegates resources? Set the vision? Discipline? Etc).  Do you know of a church that is practically living out the “starfish” model with more then 30 people? (I say “more the 30 people” because I would assume the smaller the church, the easier decisions can be made as there are less people involved. As a church gets bigger, making decisions get harder as there are more people to contact, more viewpoints, etc…)

As far as book… I can’t really say that I ever read a book about church planting – or one that greatly influenced me to become a church planter. =/  I just basically fell into church planting group four years ago on a whim – and then ended up being one of three “leaders” left standing. At which point, I “became” the associate pastor along with my wife, who was also one of the three, supporting the third member of our group, who “became” the senior pastor. In other words, we all are “accidental” pastors / church planters. =P

That said, I have a feeling that my wife and I are going to become “real” church planters sometime in the future as we “caught” the passion for the local church. It wasn’t so much something we read as it was something we caught from our mentors, mission works overseas, and life in general. =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of a church with a decentralized leadership…yet, I’ve never actually seen one working (good or bad) – so it is hard for me to full understand how it would work in practicality (i.e. Who keeps the money? Sets the budget? Delegates resources? Set the vision? Discipline? Etc).  Do you know of a church that is practically living out the “starfish” model with more then 30 people? (I say “more the 30 people” because I would assume the smaller the church, the easier decisions can be made as there are less people involved. As a church gets bigger, making decisions get harder as there are more people to contact, more viewpoints, etc…)</p>
<p>As far as book… I can’t really say that I ever read a book about church planting – or one that greatly influenced me to become a church planter. =/  I just basically fell into church planting group four years ago on a whim – and then ended up being one of three “leaders” left standing. At which point, I “became” the associate pastor along with my wife, who was also one of the three, supporting the third member of our group, who “became” the senior pastor. In other words, we all are “accidental” pastors / church planters. =P</p>
<p>That said, I have a feeling that my wife and I are going to become “real” church planters sometime in the future as we “caught” the passion for the local church. It wasn’t so much something we read as it was something we caught from our mentors, mission works overseas, and life in general. =)</p>
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		<title>By: Ty Grigg</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-569</link>
		<dc:creator>Ty Grigg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 19:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-569</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been hearing a lot about the Starfish and the Spider.  Your post convinced to put it on the list of must-reads.  Probably the book that was the most influential to me has been The Shaping of Things to Come... read it while on staff with Illini Life Christian Fellowship in Champaign, and it led me to dream about a new way of being church.  

Decentralization of leadership is an interesting thought.  Personally it appeals to my intuitive and introverted leadership style (i.e. I&#039;m not naturally the up-front vision casting Patton-like pastor).  I want to work with a plurality of leaders with different gifts.  

I wonder if we need to discern what kind of church we have before discerning whether decentralized or centralized leadership is needed.  A lot of church planting teams are filled with highly-motivated, skilled, and disciple-seasoned members where decentralized leadership works great.  What about established churches or younger churches who have to be lead through change and require more hands-on direction?  If we go the route of centralized leadership are we simply going the route of greatest efficiency?  Pfftt!  (sound of brain exploding)

Thanks Jason for another thought-provoking post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been hearing a lot about the Starfish and the Spider.  Your post convinced to put it on the list of must-reads.  Probably the book that was the most influential to me has been The Shaping of Things to Come&#8230; read it while on staff with Illini Life Christian Fellowship in Champaign, and it led me to dream about a new way of being church.  </p>
<p>Decentralization of leadership is an interesting thought.  Personally it appeals to my intuitive and introverted leadership style (i.e. I&#8217;m not naturally the up-front vision casting Patton-like pastor).  I want to work with a plurality of leaders with different gifts.  </p>
<p>I wonder if we need to discern what kind of church we have before discerning whether decentralized or centralized leadership is needed.  A lot of church planting teams are filled with highly-motivated, skilled, and disciple-seasoned members where decentralized leadership works great.  What about established churches or younger churches who have to be lead through change and require more hands-on direction?  If we go the route of centralized leadership are we simply going the route of greatest efficiency?  Pfftt!  (sound of brain exploding)</p>
<p>Thanks Jason for another thought-provoking post!</p>
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		<title>By: steven hamilton</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-566</link>
		<dc:creator>steven hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-566</guid>
		<description>no church-planter - as yet - am i, but i do resonate with some of your thoughts; particularly the effort we must enter to dis-entangle power, authority and control vis-a-vis the church (which Ray echoes Jesus&#039; sentiments on and i whole-heartedly agree!)

in terms of leadership - if it is earned and not entitled...that takes me back to some of the roots of the Vineyard and Wimber looking at leadership being &#039;gifting&#039;-based, or &#039;ministry-based&#039;.  i think the Church in general has run far afield from that perspective, perhaps mis-understanding it, let alone the relational and communal aspects of discerning it...as you know, i have been contemplating the significance of this perspective (&#039;everyone gets to play&#039;-esque)from james d.g. dunn, which brings leadership and authority back to the Spirit of Christ:

“As E. Kasemann has rightly insisted, so far as the Pauline community is concerned, authority resides in or belongs to the act of ministry itself – it resides neither in the person nor in an office, but in the particular charisma itself.  Moreover, the concomitant responsibility to evaluate that charisma is laid upon all.  Now this fact is true of all ministry, of all charismata, in the Pauline vision of community.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no church-planter &#8211; as yet &#8211; am i, but i do resonate with some of your thoughts; particularly the effort we must enter to dis-entangle power, authority and control vis-a-vis the church (which Ray echoes Jesus&#8217; sentiments on and i whole-heartedly agree!)</p>
<p>in terms of leadership &#8211; if it is earned and not entitled&#8230;that takes me back to some of the roots of the Vineyard and Wimber looking at leadership being &#8216;gifting&#8217;-based, or &#8216;ministry-based&#8217;.  i think the Church in general has run far afield from that perspective, perhaps mis-understanding it, let alone the relational and communal aspects of discerning it&#8230;as you know, i have been contemplating the significance of this perspective (&#8216;everyone gets to play&#8217;-esque)from james d.g. dunn, which brings leadership and authority back to the Spirit of Christ:</p>
<p>“As E. Kasemann has rightly insisted, so far as the Pauline community is concerned, authority resides in or belongs to the act of ministry itself – it resides neither in the person nor in an office, but in the particular charisma itself.  Moreover, the concomitant responsibility to evaluate that charisma is laid upon all.  Now this fact is true of all ministry, of all charismata, in the Pauline vision of community.”</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-565</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-565</guid>
		<description>Very cool John, I&#039;d love to hear how some of those ideas were fleshed out sometime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cool John, I&#8217;d love to hear how some of those ideas were fleshed out sometime.</p>
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		<title>By: Tweets that mention Pastoralia » The Most Important Church Planting Book I’ve Read (Isn’t About The Church) -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-564</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Pastoralia » The Most Important Church Planting Book I’ve Read (Isn’t About The Church) -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 06:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-564</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Paul Vander Klay, ThinkChristian, Twoshirts.org, Twoshirts.org, Micah Film Fest and others. Micah Film Fest said: RT @pastoralia: How The Starfish and The Spider influenced me to plant a church: http://bit.ly/7cOyoi [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Paul Vander Klay, ThinkChristian, Twoshirts.org, Twoshirts.org, Micah Film Fest and others. Micah Film Fest said: RT @pastoralia: How The Starfish and The Spider influenced me to plant a church: <a href="http://bit.ly/7cOyoi" rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/7cOyoi</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: john chandler</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator>john chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 04:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-563</guid>
		<description>This book was a huge influence for me as well. Wrote a paper around it my last semester at Mars Hill Grad School that became the primary source of dreams for our church start-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This book was a huge influence for me as well. Wrote a paper around it my last semester at Mars Hill Grad School that became the primary source of dreams for our church start-up.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-562</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-562</guid>
		<description>God&#039;s wisdom in plain sight, indeed. Last night I was watching the film, The International, which was an otherwise bland experience but for this phrase:

&quot;Sometimes a man can meet his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.&quot;

That&#039;s my church-planting story in a nutshell. Funny how the Spirit moves you. 

Thanks for the comments Ray!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God&#8217;s wisdom in plain sight, indeed. Last night I was watching the film, The International, which was an otherwise bland experience but for this phrase:</p>
<p>&#8220;Sometimes a man can meet his destiny on the road he took to avoid it.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my church-planting story in a nutshell. Funny how the Spirit moves you. </p>
<p>Thanks for the comments Ray!</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Hollenbach</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/books/the-most-important-church-planting-book-ive-read-isnt-about-the-church/comment-page-1#comment-561</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Hollenbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 02:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=1127#comment-561</guid>
		<description>God&#039;s wisdom is hidden in plain sight.  Read ten books on church planting and you come away with nada.  Read one book about organic models of organizations and the Spirit calls you.

First of all, I&#039;m happy for you, Jason.  Second, your question regarding the book that has most influenced me.  I can&#039;t remember the title but how vividly I recall the key phrase:  &quot;You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.   Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,  and whoever wants to be first must be your slave -  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.&quot;  Oh yeah, I remember the book--it&#039;s Matthew 20: 25 - 28.

North American church models have drunk deep of the church-as-a-business model.  Is it any surprise that we find the church a lifeless organization instead of a life-giving organism?  The most decentralized model I can think of is the picture of a grain of wheat falling into the ground, into death, and eventually re-emerging full of life.  I believe church planters/leaders exist to encourage and release others into their destiny, a destiny imagined deep in the Father&#039;s heart.  Good luck to you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God&#8217;s wisdom is hidden in plain sight.  Read ten books on church planting and you come away with nada.  Read one book about organic models of organizations and the Spirit calls you.</p>
<p>First of all, I&#8217;m happy for you, Jason.  Second, your question regarding the book that has most influenced me.  I can&#8217;t remember the title but how vividly I recall the key phrase:  &#8220;You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.   Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,  and whoever wants to be first must be your slave &#8211;  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.&#8221;  Oh yeah, I remember the book&#8211;it&#8217;s Matthew 20: 25 &#8211; 28.</p>
<p>North American church models have drunk deep of the church-as-a-business model.  Is it any surprise that we find the church a lifeless organization instead of a life-giving organism?  The most decentralized model I can think of is the picture of a grain of wheat falling into the ground, into death, and eventually re-emerging full of life.  I believe church planters/leaders exist to encourage and release others into their destiny, a destiny imagined deep in the Father&#8217;s heart.  Good luck to you!</p>
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