Comments on: 5 Arguments Against the Use of Marketing and Media in Church http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church Welcome. I'm a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I'm involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture. Fri, 30 Jul 2010 00:32:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1836 Jason Coker Wed, 12 May 2010 03:13:16 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1836 Again, great comments Chris. And I agree, although I think there's plenty of critique of the medium in scripture. Technology is just an extension of humanity, and we all know scripture has plenty to say about humanity's brokenness. My curls ARE my brain...kind of like Sampson. The longer my hair gets, the smarter I get ; ) And I doubt anyone would ever make the mistake of thinking you're less than brilliant. Again, great comments Chris. And I agree, although I think there’s plenty of critique of the medium in scripture. Technology is just an extension of humanity, and we all know scripture has plenty to say about humanity’s brokenness.

My curls ARE my brain…kind of like Sampson. The longer my hair gets, the smarter I get ; )

And I doubt anyone would ever make the mistake of thinking you’re less than brilliant.

]]> By: Chris Self http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1834 Chris Self Tue, 11 May 2010 02:43:37 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1834 You bet man ........i totally agree with you that this is a major issue in the way we DO church. I think, unfortunately, most people just automatically expect it to be just another part of the show, that is to say the tech aspect of "church". Its ashamed that we so easily get distracted by shiny objects , or maybe entranced by them........ i just think that the information content part of the gospel is not to be abandoned. You know what i mean, the whole baby with the bathwater thing. All relationships first begin with information. We all had to assimilate some form of learning to be able to relate with other humans and i believe the same is true of God. He instructs us to gain knowledge and grow in Spirit and Truth - while never really addressing the medium through which that might happen (crap - i just sounded like my dad!) i think it's best seen as information content brought to life by relational covenant. It probably takes both to create wholeness in individuals. And content without relationship is self gratifying and breeds a certain ammount of impotence within leaders all across the church today. The content has to have the relationship for it to really matter. But relationship without the content is not full either. Tricky, tricky..... By the way man - how do you hide that big brain under all those curls? :) Good thing about being Southern is you can fool everyone into thinking your stupid with fairly little effort!!! That is why i haven't lost my accent yet. It's good to hide behind every now and again...... Much love to you and your wife big guy!!! See ya You bet man ……..i totally agree with you that this is a major issue in the way we DO church. I think, unfortunately, most people just automatically expect it to be just another part of the show, that is to say the tech aspect of “church”. Its ashamed that we so easily get distracted by shiny objects , or maybe entranced by them…….. i just think that the information content part of the gospel is not to be abandoned. You know what i mean, the whole baby with the bathwater thing. All relationships first begin with information.

We all had to assimilate some form of learning to be able to relate with other humans and i believe the same is true of God. He instructs us to gain knowledge and grow in Spirit and Truth – while never really addressing the medium through which that might happen (crap – i just sounded like my dad!) i think it’s best seen as information content brought to life by relational covenant. It probably takes both to create wholeness in individuals. And content without relationship is self gratifying and breeds a certain ammount of impotence within leaders all across the church today. The content has to have the relationship for it to really matter. But relationship without the content is not full either. Tricky, tricky…..

By the way man – how do you hide that big brain under all those curls? :) Good thing about being Southern is you can fool everyone into thinking your stupid with fairly little effort!!! That is why i haven’t lost my accent yet. It’s good to hide behind every now and again…… Much love to you and your wife big guy!!! See ya

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1833 Jason Coker Tue, 11 May 2010 01:15:17 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1833 <strong>Hi Chris!</strong> Good thoughts, thanks for taking the time to share! I agree that technology itself is not the enemy - I think tech should be used (obviously, I guess, since I'm writing this on my blog), but I do think there a couple issues that aren't usually considered: 1) The gospel should never be offered like a product in the marketplace, and - lets face it - most of the forms that I'm criticizing do just that. To bring the gospel to the marketplace <em>as just another product</em> is to prostitute it. 2) Tools aren't neutral - they impact and affect the message, the messenger, and the recipient. To the extent that we take those things into careful consideration, I'm all for a creative, redemptive, and appropriate use of media and technology. BUT, it's my contention that those points by and large are not being considered. We think its perfectly appropriate to use any means available to communicate the gospel. Why? Because... 3) We've misunderstood the gospel as <em>information content</em> rather than a<em> relational covenant.</em> If the gospel is just information, then any medium will do. In fact, the more technology the better, since tech is efficient. But if the gospel is a relational covenant then only personal, human contact will truthfully convey it. Which is why I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about being able to love people well. Amen brother. Amen. Thanks again for the thoughtful comments Chris! Looking forward to the Turducken : ) Hi Chris!

Good thoughts, thanks for taking the time to share!

I agree that technology itself is not the enemy – I think tech should be used (obviously, I guess, since I’m writing this on my blog), but I do think there a couple issues that aren’t usually considered:

1) The gospel should never be offered like a product in the marketplace, and – lets face it – most of the forms that I’m criticizing do just that. To bring the gospel to the marketplace as just another product is to prostitute it.

2) Tools aren’t neutral – they impact and affect the message, the messenger, and the recipient.

To the extent that we take those things into careful consideration, I’m all for a creative, redemptive, and appropriate use of media and technology. BUT, it’s my contention that those points by and large are not being considered. We think its perfectly appropriate to use any means available to communicate the gospel. Why? Because…

3) We’ve misunderstood the gospel as information content rather than a relational covenant.

If the gospel is just information, then any medium will do. In fact, the more technology the better, since tech is efficient. But if the gospel is a relational covenant then only personal, human contact will truthfully convey it.

Which is why I wholeheartedly agree with your statement about being able to love people well. Amen brother. Amen.

Thanks again for the thoughtful comments Chris! Looking forward to the Turducken : )

]]> By: Chris Self http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1831 Chris Self Mon, 10 May 2010 05:05:41 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1831 By the way - just to be clear. I mentioned "an enemy" - it's not the people we are serving to be sure. It's the spirit of confusion that drives us to madness. Clarity and simplicity will always prevail when attempting the gospel. Its like a good golf swing - it only works if you can repeat it. Then it matures to something else and you have to learn to repeat it again - and again - and again. Always growing - but always getting passed on as a legacy.......... By the way – just to be clear. I mentioned “an enemy” – it’s not the people we are serving to be sure. It’s the spirit of confusion that drives us to madness. Clarity and simplicity will always prevail when attempting the gospel. Its like a good golf swing – it only works if you can repeat it. Then it matures to something else and you have to learn to repeat it again – and again – and again. Always growing – but always getting passed on as a legacy……….

]]> By: Chris Self http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1830 Chris Self Mon, 10 May 2010 05:00:48 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1830 Hey buddy - reading through some of your stuff tonight. I have a thought - i realize i am a few months late getting to this. So goes my life! By the way, missing you guys! It seems that the use of current and modern media or tech is not the enemy, but perhaps just the leading edge of a temptation to ONLY do that. The key to being successful in reaching our communities, i believe, lies in being able to do many things well - but to love great! The problem with living in a consumer society is that we naturally seek the path of least resistance. Reaching a ton of people with the stroke of a key is a great tool - if combined with one on one relationships and the working of discipleship and authority in our lives as leaders and followers. As with many things in the Vineyard the solution lies somewhere in between. I know many pastors that are great with "producing" a service but horrible on someone's backporch with the cigar lite by a low humming fire. But that pastor can only do what he knows - for now. He can, however, in the meantime, practice what is lacking. So i guess we do with what we have and know - the rest is all roulette! Finding the value in EVERY tool available to us is the redemption of a consumer mindset - not the prostitution of it. It's vietnam and we sometimes can't see the enemy because we are foreigners. The fact is that today's culture is very tech oriented and we can put those tools to use as God directs - and i believe he honors that. But not JUST that. Love ya man - keep rockin!!!! Turducken? Hey buddy – reading through some of your stuff tonight. I have a thought – i realize i am a few months late getting to this. So goes my life! By the way, missing you guys!

It seems that the use of current and modern media or tech is not the enemy, but perhaps just the leading edge of a temptation to ONLY do that.

The key to being successful in reaching our communities, i believe, lies in being able to do many things well – but to love great! The problem with living in a consumer society is that we naturally seek the path of least resistance. Reaching a ton of people with the stroke of a key is a great tool – if combined with one on one relationships and the working of discipleship and authority in our lives as leaders and followers. As with many things in the Vineyard the solution lies somewhere in between.

I know many pastors that are great with “producing” a service but horrible on someone’s backporch with the cigar lite by a low humming fire. But that pastor can only do what he knows – for now. He can, however, in the meantime, practice what is lacking. So i guess we do with what we have and know – the rest is all roulette!

Finding the value in EVERY tool available to us is the redemption of a consumer mindset – not the prostitution of it. It’s vietnam and we sometimes can’t see the enemy because we are foreigners. The fact is that today’s culture is very tech oriented and we can put those tools to use as God directs – and i believe he honors that. But not JUST that. Love ya man – keep rockin!!!! Turducken?

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1522 Jason Coker Thu, 01 Apr 2010 02:59:39 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1522 Thanks for the heads-up Helio! Thanks for the heads-up Helio!

]]> By: Helio http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-1520 Helio Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:14:51 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-1520 The Portuguese version of this article is here: http://ocontornodasombra.blogspot.com/2010/03/5-argumentos-contra-o-uso-do-marketing.html Thanks, Jason! The Portuguese version of this article is here:

http://ocontornodasombra.blogspot.com/2010/03/5-argumentos-contra-o-uso-do-marketing.html

Thanks, Jason!

]]> By: TheyCallMePastorBryan | is proselytizing spam? pt 2 http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-659 TheyCallMePastorBryan | is proselytizing spam? pt 2 Sun, 31 Jan 2010 19:23:00 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-659 [...] to the way of Christ. Although somewhat tangentially related, blog friend, Jason Coker, has a great post on thinking about the church’s use of media and some critiques to keep in [...] [...] to the way of Christ. Although somewhat tangentially related, blog friend, Jason Coker, has a great post on thinking about the church’s use of media and some critiques to keep in [...]

]]> By: Pastoralia » Top 10 Pastoralia Articles This Month http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-631 Pastoralia » Top 10 Pastoralia Articles This Month Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:18 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-631 [...] 5 Arguments Against the Use of Media and Marketing in Church [...] [...] 5 Arguments Against the Use of Media and Marketing in Church [...]

]]> By: Pastoralia » Everything That’s Wrong With The American Church in Two Words http://pastoralia.org/church/5-arguments-against-the-use-of-marketing-and-media-in-church/comment-page-1#comment-576 Pastoralia » Everything That’s Wrong With The American Church in Two Words Wed, 27 Jan 2010 04:16:08 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=990#comment-576 [...] I can feel another “media and missional” blog post [...] [...] I can feel another “media and missional” blog post [...]

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