Comments on: After SVS 2010: Cathy Zellmer, The Divine Perichoretic Mission of Love http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love Welcome. I'm a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I'm involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture. Wed, 16 May 2012 14:35:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Cathy Zellmer http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1489 Cathy Zellmer Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:16:02 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1489 Orion, I looked up Rublev's Trinity. I had no idea that was the name or artist, but it is an icon I've looked at many times. I love it because it shows the Trinity as three persons, not to mention the beautiful colors. I had no inkling though as to the symbolism of the chalice. Thank you for directing me to it! It is well worth mulling on. ~Cathy Orion, I looked up Rublev’s Trinity. I had no idea that was the name or artist, but it is an icon I’ve looked at many times. I love it because it shows the Trinity as three persons, not to mention the beautiful colors. I had no inkling though as to the symbolism of the chalice. Thank you for directing me to it! It is well worth mulling on.

~Cathy

]]> By: Cathy Zellmer http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1459 Cathy Zellmer Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:07:53 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1459 Fascinating, Orion. I have homework to do apparently--Rublev and his trinity icon. My art history daughter, Emily, is going to love this. Thank you. Fascinating, Orion. I have homework to do apparently–Rublev and his trinity icon. My art history daughter, Emily, is going to love this. Thank you.

]]> By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1458 Orion Edgar Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:27:16 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1458 Sorry - that might not have been totally clear - 'khora' is the word which is used to refer to the chalice in images like the Rublev one, as I understand it. Sorry – that might not have been totally clear – ‘khora’ is the word which is used to refer to the chalice in images like the Rublev one, as I understand it.

]]> By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1457 Orion Edgar Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:22:55 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1457 Ah, interesting - so it may be the etymology I suggested is just made up. I know that the meaning of this word 'khora' is rather unclear in the tradition – I was thinking of the famous icon of the trinity by Andrei Rublev, and wondering whether this chalice (which I think is an established symbol for something womb-like in iconography, although I expect you will know about this better than I do) represents God's relationship to creation, something which is other than God and maybe even a suprise to God but yet which comes from God. Maternity would seem to be a very appropriate image for that. Ah, interesting – so it may be the etymology I suggested is just made up. I know that the meaning of this word ‘khora’ is rather unclear in the tradition – I was thinking of the famous icon of the trinity by Andrei Rublev, and wondering whether this chalice (which I think is an established symbol for something womb-like in iconography, although I expect you will know about this better than I do) represents God’s relationship to creation, something which is other than God and maybe even a suprise to God but yet which comes from God. Maternity would seem to be a very appropriate image for that.

]]> By: Cathy Zellmer http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1456 Cathy Zellmer Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:33:39 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1456 Hi, Orion, The definition of perichoresis--to dance around--actually has an interesting history. It came about as a mistranslation on the part of one author (Robert Kress, 1976), which another describes as “fortuitous,” (Michael Lawler). The result is that this meaning, ‘to dance around,’ has become an accepted description for perichoresis, though I personally don't feel that it does justice to the profundity of the Godhead. With that I would have to say that more than once I have been described as too serious... :) I am unfamiliar with 'khora,' but in looking it up I see that it has maternal overtones, as in womb-like. That's fascinating as I think of the perichoretic relationship as the womb of the Godhead. Thank you, Orion. ~Cathy Hi, Orion,

The definition of perichoresis–to dance around–actually has an interesting history. It came about as a mistranslation on the part of one author (Robert Kress, 1976), which another describes as “fortuitous,” (Michael Lawler). The result is that this meaning, ‘to dance around,’ has become an accepted description for perichoresis, though I personally don’t feel that it does justice to the profundity of the Godhead. With that I would have to say that more than once I have been described as too serious… :)

I am unfamiliar with ‘khora,’ but in looking it up I see that it has maternal overtones, as in womb-like. That’s fascinating as I think of the perichoretic relationship as the womb of the Godhead. Thank you, Orion.

~Cathy

]]> By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1455 Orion Edgar Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:26:07 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1455 Cathy, I like your explication of this. I think you're right that our understanding of the trinity affects everything we do. I had heard understandings of perichoresis that link it with a kind of dance, but I hadn't realised the etymological point that it is movement around the 'khora', the 'making space' for a not-yet-determined something, as you point out. Perichoresis as 'making space' for an other makes sense of love as an essential part of the trinity. Thanks for this. Cathy, I like your explication of this. I think you’re right that our understanding of the trinity affects everything we do. I had heard understandings of perichoresis that link it with a kind of dance, but I hadn’t realised the etymological point that it is movement around the ‘khora’, the ‘making space’ for a not-yet-determined something, as you point out. Perichoresis as ‘making space’ for an other makes sense of love as an essential part of the trinity. Thanks for this.

]]> By: Pastoralia – Tales from the future of Christendom » New Series: Dialoging With The Society of Vineyard Scholars http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1428 Pastoralia – Tales from the future of Christendom » New Series: Dialoging With The Society of Vineyard Scholars Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:41:01 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1428 [...] – Cathy Zellmer: “The Divine Perichoretic Mission of Love” 3/23 – Steve Burnhope: “Culture, Worldview, and the Cross: Penal Substitutionary [...] [...] – Cathy Zellmer: “The Divine Perichoretic Mission of Love” 3/23 – Steve Burnhope: “Culture, Worldview, and the Cross: Penal Substitutionary [...]

]]> By: steven hamilton http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1411 steven hamilton Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:11:45 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1411 i think that is fantastic...i think that sounds like an expression of love and a lot of "one-anothering" going on...i think the dual aspect of seeking to hear from God (make room for God) and hear from others (make room for the other) is a powerful combination that embodies the message of love. i think that is fantastic…i think that sounds like an expression of love and a lot of “one-anothering” going on…i think the dual aspect of seeking to hear from God (make room for God) and hear from others (make room for the other) is a powerful combination that embodies the message of love.

]]> By: Cathy Zellmer http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1404 Cathy Zellmer Mon, 22 Mar 2010 21:49:46 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1404 I think that’s a great question, Steve. Our church’s worship service is formatted just the way yours is. I haven’t actually framed worship format perichoretically, but reframing, I’ve been in conversation this past week or so with Pastor Les Yoder, an Oregon Vineyard pastor, on the way that his church formats their worship service. It seems to me that he has good suggestions for ‘making room.’ In addition to home groups and lots of church community building happenings, they “always have an "Open Microphone" portion of the Sunday Morning where 3 to 5 men and women prophesy, testify, or exhort each week. And for these 15 years - once a month - someone else preaches - someone from within the congregation or a guest speaker. And there is a little back & forth with comments or questions during the sermon.” We live in a culture where people want to be part of what’s going on, they want to participate, e.g. America’s Got Talent, American Idol, etc… I think Les is making room for his people to do that in the Scio Vineyard, to feel/take ownership in the worship service through the prophesying, testifying, exhorting, and preaching. Making room for those outside the Scio Vineyard seems to me a healthy move in allowing congregants to have a broader view of the larger church outside their own congregation. What do you think, Steve? I think that’s a great question, Steve. Our church’s worship service is formatted just the way yours is. I haven’t actually framed worship format perichoretically, but reframing, I’ve been in conversation this past week or so with Pastor Les Yoder, an Oregon Vineyard pastor, on the way that his church formats their worship service. It seems to me that he has good suggestions for ‘making room.’ In addition to home groups and lots of church community building happenings, they “always have an “Open Microphone” portion of the Sunday Morning where 3 to 5 men and women prophesy, testify, or exhort each week. And for these 15 years – once a month – someone else preaches – someone from within the congregation or a guest speaker. And there is a little back & forth with comments or questions during the sermon.”

We live in a culture where people want to be part of what’s going on, they want to participate, e.g. America’s Got Talent, American Idol, etc… I think Les is making room for his people to do that in the Scio Vineyard, to feel/take ownership in the worship service through the prophesying, testifying, exhorting, and preaching. Making room for those outside the Scio Vineyard seems to me a healthy move in allowing congregants to have a broader view of the larger church outside their own congregation.

What do you think, Steve?

]]> By: steven hamilton http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-2010-cathy-zellmer-the-divine-perichoretic-mission-of-love/comment-page-1#comment-1401 steven hamilton Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:37:32 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1703#comment-1401 thanks cathy, it has been my experience so that immediately came to mind. follow-up: this has me thinking again about the "making room in our liturgies" aspect. i think the casual dress and "come as you are" in the Vineyard worship services are really perichoretic, but something i have discussed with others is the typical liturgy of a Vineyard is: 1. invocation or welcome, 2. extended worship music time, 3. announcments, 4. teaching/preaching; 5. ministry time. we were debating - based on the response of visitors to our sunday gatherings - about the placement of extended worship, and do that at another point (after the teaching/preaching) and during ministry time so that we "make room for" those who don't come immediately into a gathering primed and ready for extended music (i actually had a visitor-friend ask me about the "karaoke at the start of the gathering". so, my question: how do you see our liturgical ways as perichoetic and have you experienced or experimented with other liturgical practices in order to be more perichoretic? thanks cathy, it has been my experience so that immediately came to mind.

follow-up: this has me thinking again about the “making room in our liturgies” aspect. i think the casual dress and “come as you are” in the Vineyard worship services are really perichoretic, but something i have discussed with others is the typical liturgy of a Vineyard is: 1. invocation or welcome, 2. extended worship music time, 3. announcments, 4. teaching/preaching; 5. ministry time.

we were debating – based on the response of visitors to our sunday gatherings – about the placement of extended worship, and do that at another point (after the teaching/preaching) and during ministry time so that we “make room for” those who don’t come immediately into a gathering primed and ready for extended music (i actually had a visitor-friend ask me about the “karaoke at the start of the gathering”.

so, my question: how do you see our liturgical ways as perichoetic and have you experienced or experimented with other liturgical practices in order to be more perichoretic?

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