Comments on: After SVS: Orion Edgar, Justice and the Kingdom of God: Atonement and New Creation http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation Welcome. I'm a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I'm involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture. Wed, 16 May 2012 14:35:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1344 Orion Edgar Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:44:34 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1344 Thankyou Cathy, I'm glad it spoke to you, I felt like I was only able to scratch the surface of this topic. I wasn't able in the paper to make explicit the links between the temple thing and the importance of recovering an embodied understanding of the human being, I'm happy that you saw those connections. Thankyou Cathy, I’m glad it spoke to you, I felt like I was only able to scratch the surface of this topic. I wasn’t able in the paper to make explicit the links between the temple thing and the importance of recovering an embodied understanding of the human being, I’m happy that you saw those connections.

]]> By: Cathy Zellmer http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1342 Cathy Zellmer Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:05:28 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1342 Your piece is awesome, Orion. The nuances of embodiment are rich throughout the whole of it. It is a topic I'm just becoming familiar with. I would love to be able to read the entire paper. In what I've found on the topic so far, yours is what speaks most to me. Thank you so much! Your piece is awesome, Orion. The nuances of embodiment are rich throughout the whole of it. It is a topic I’m just becoming familiar with. I would love to be able to read the entire paper. In what I’ve found on the topic so far, yours is what speaks most to me. Thank you so much!

]]> By: Pastoralia – Tales from the future of Christendom » New Series: Dialoging With The Society of Vineyard Scholars http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1341 Pastoralia – Tales from the future of Christendom » New Series: Dialoging With The Society of Vineyard Scholars Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:01:35 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1341 [...] – Orion Edgar: “Justice and the Kingdom of God: Atonement and New Creation” 3/16 – Ryan McAnally-Linz 3/17 – Jared Boyd 3/18 – Jonathan Rutz 3/19 – [...] [...] – Orion Edgar: “Justice and the Kingdom of God: Atonement and New Creation” 3/16 – Ryan McAnally-Linz 3/17 – Jared Boyd 3/18 – Jonathan Rutz 3/19 – [...]

]]> By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1340 Orion Edgar Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:32:19 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1340 @Steven Schenk – your last sentence expresses exactly my worry, I think. I don't want to overstate it: in my experience of the vineyard what we say about the kingdom is deeply internalised and lived out in our service of the poor, for example; but there is a problem with a disconnect from tradition. I really thought what Jason Clark had to say on this stuff was/is valuable: in some ways, I'm not sure we really know what the church <strong>is</strong>. @Steven Schenk – your last sentence expresses exactly my worry, I think. I don’t want to overstate it: in my experience of the vineyard what we say about the kingdom is deeply internalised and lived out in our service of the poor, for example; but there is a problem with a disconnect from tradition. I really thought what Jason Clark had to say on this stuff was/is valuable: in some ways, I’m not sure we really know what the church is.

]]> By: Orion Edgar http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1339 Orion Edgar Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:24:35 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1339 Thanks for your comments – it's interesting that you mention God's speech in Job. I think Job certainly complexifies our understanding of the relationship between sin / human failure, evil, and the broken-ness of creation in important ways. I hadn't thought of it but I think you are right to say that it might be seen as an invitation to participate in the ordering of creation in some way, inasmuch as it identifies God's work as that of upholding and maintaining creation, and we might think of ourselves as called to be co-workers with God. That this is part of an ongoing work of at-one-ment is part of what I hoped to propose, I wonder if atonement in this extended sense is really the content of the kingdom which is coming? Thanks for your comments – it’s interesting that you mention God’s speech in Job. I think Job certainly complexifies our understanding of the relationship between sin / human failure, evil, and the broken-ness of creation in important ways. I hadn’t thought of it but I think you are right to say that it might be seen as an invitation to participate in the ordering of creation in some way, inasmuch as it identifies God’s work as that of upholding and maintaining creation, and we might think of ourselves as called to be co-workers with God. That this is part of an ongoing work of at-one-ment is part of what I hoped to propose, I wonder if atonement in this extended sense is really the content of the kingdom which is coming?

]]> By: Steven Schenk http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1338 Steven Schenk Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:57:25 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1338 The call to rethink liturgy resonates with me... I think the most effective communication takes place on levels other than verbal. Certainly verbal is the most direct, but it is also the easiest to 'defuse.' When we are communicating effectively with other methods we are able to do a much deeper work. With ritual, imagery, tradition, participatory action, story, and emotional investment we are able to communicate at a level that can either bypass or reinforce a direct verbal attempt at communication. We ignore this to our own peril. It is at this point that we are usually guilty of sending mixed messages. Verbally saying 'Jesus and the Kingdom' but with every other method of communication we say 'Individualism and Consumerism.' The call to rethink liturgy resonates with me…

I think the most effective communication takes place on levels other than verbal. Certainly verbal is the most direct, but it is also the easiest to ‘defuse.’ When we are communicating effectively with other methods we are able to do a much deeper work.

With ritual, imagery, tradition, participatory action, story, and emotional investment we are able to communicate at a level that can either bypass or reinforce a direct verbal attempt at communication.

We ignore this to our own peril. It is at this point that we are usually guilty of sending mixed messages. Verbally saying ‘Jesus and the Kingdom’ but with every other method of communication we say ‘Individualism and Consumerism.’

]]> By: steven hamilton http://pastoralia.org/church/after-svs-orion-edgar-justice-and-the-kingdom-of-god-atonement-and-new-creation/comment-page-1#comment-1337 steven hamilton Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:27:34 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=1653#comment-1337 very interesting orion...this resonates with some of my own wisdom literature orientation, especially the usage of 'evad/serve and shamar/guard throughout wisdom literature; not only that but liturgical formation has been the topic of a lot of discussions here lately, so i can't wait until the release of papers so i can dig further into your paper...because i think this is important work. especially for the Vineyard - to embrace this encompassing and transformational Kingdom vision that includes a holistic aspect of biblical justice - social, economic, environmental - more fully...not just at a macro-level but hopefully at the micro-level in local Vineyard churches. this provokes me to re-consider (yet again) God's response to Job when he appears in the whirlwind. so many scholars have seen this non-sequitor-ish, yet not only does this response witness to God's emcompassing a creation care perspective therein, but perhaps it is inviational as well - in a provocative way; perhaps this might provoke us to embrace atonement beyond a flattened atonement only ever focused on the individual self, but calling us further and further inward and outward, especially since now the Kingdom has come and is coming in Christ Jesus. What do you think? very interesting orion…this resonates with some of my own wisdom literature orientation, especially the usage of ‘evad/serve and shamar/guard throughout wisdom literature; not only that but liturgical formation has been the topic of a lot of discussions here lately, so i can’t wait until the release of papers so i can dig further into your paper…because i think this is important work. especially for the Vineyard – to embrace this encompassing and transformational Kingdom vision that includes a holistic aspect of biblical justice – social, economic, environmental – more fully…not just at a macro-level but hopefully at the micro-level in local Vineyard churches.

this provokes me to re-consider (yet again) God’s response to Job when he appears in the whirlwind. so many scholars have seen this non-sequitor-ish, yet not only does this response witness to God’s emcompassing a creation care perspective therein, but perhaps it is inviational as well – in a provocative way; perhaps this might provoke us to embrace atonement beyond a flattened atonement only ever focused on the individual self, but calling us further and further inward and outward, especially since now the Kingdom has come and is coming in Christ Jesus.

What do you think?

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