Mike

Actually I have heard that many people of our age group are “leaving the church in droves”. For some reason, I failed to connect the dots. The children of yesterday are the adults today (I mean, past teaching tactics and techniques may not be the full reason why this problem exists today – but it apparently has added to the problem. Who knew).

However, because free will plays such a huge role in every persons decision – it may not matter WHAT “technique” is applied. Then again, perhaps whatever answers that come to light may help and encourage more to become more passionate for Christ.

“Therefore, the issue is not tweaking scheduls and creating new youth programs, it’s about rethinking the foundational assumptions on which the institution is built.”

Well, now that I’ve connected the dots on the first, this comment makes a lot of sense. Why throw more people and resources at a situation that’s unsustainable.

“If we don’t do Sunday school or youth groups anymore because those models aren’t theologically tenable or even pragmatically effective, how DO we disciple our kids?”

Weelllll – with the latest 21 century technology, that old “Hollyweird” movie could become more reality than fiction. Remember the “Stepford children”? Not a good idea? Ok, forget it. I’ve got nothing.

Although I know that Christ needs to reach my children (and all other children) in His own way and that they will (understandably) have different spiritual experiences than I had. And that’s the way it SHOULD be. I guess there’s always that part of us which thinks back to what helped draw US in and ground us more in our own spiritual path, we tend to want our kids to have that same exciting and nurturing experience too.

The bigger point is that the childrens and youth ministry system you're describing don't work – not just for getting volunteers, but, more importantly, for making disciples. The data indicates that most kids grow up and leave the church. Moreover, the system of "church" itself (within which Sunday school and youth ministry depend) – that is, "come to us to get your weekly spiritual fix from the professionals" – doesn't work either. Church, by and large, doesn't reach most people in emerging cultures because it is based on a Christendom mindset, and Christendom is nearly dead in the west. But even those people who are reached aren't discipled effectively because the church expends too many resources trying to attract and hold people and not enough resources trying to train them to effectively follow Christ. Therefore, the issue is not tweaking scheduls and creating new youth programs, it's about rethinking the foundational assumptions on which the institution is built.

These comments come from those who have rethought the institution and have consequently abandoned many of its structures – especially the structures that look like consumer products. That creates a difficult void for the task of discipling children and youth because the most consumer-oriented products in Christendom churches ARE the children and youth ministries. So the question is essentially, If we don't do Sunday school or youth groups anymore because those models aren't theologically tenable or even pragmatically effective, how DO we disciple our kids?

Lots of people have ideas (including me and Jenell) but to my knowledge nobody has proven anything yet. I'm not sure anybody will – for at least a half a generation. Spiritual fruit takes a lifetime to germinate.

Interesting point by Frank – "The culture that rejects organized religion on religion's terms does not have clear models for developing an ecclesiology." Not only are there not clear models, but a high likelihood that the culture will continue to reject "our" models. Thus as you mentioned a real need to encourage experimentation.

I believe that Vineyard is uniquely situated to define and demonstrate post-charismatic spirituality, that among charismatics, Vineyardites are most likely to turn away from charismatic extremes and focus their attention and kingdom understanding on spirit-led missional life. There is a need for this post-charismatic influence and voice within the emerging/missional conversation.

I also believe that we will see the emergence of a hybrid theology that takes many of the best aspects of kingdom theology, orthodox, reformed, anabaptist, etc. but doesn't fall squarely under any of those labels.

The family ministry issue is difficult and will probably always be difficult, especially when dealing with expectations of what programs should be available. Meetings were not made for children or children for meetings. Bob Hyatt at Evergreen has some valuable thoughts in working through this issue in their community. He says, "Like in all things at the Evergreen Community, we are attempting to move away from a program-based approach to children's ministry." Then he goes on to explain some of the challenges and things they are trying.

http://www.evergreenlife.org/index.php?option=com...

There's many faults in every church including the denomination I came from (and don't intend on going back to). However, two of the things I remember having very fond memories of were "Sunday school" (that catered to all ages) and our youth group. Now I completely understand one of the hardest (if not THEE hardest) things about the children's ministry is getting people to volunteer. (another reason I feel like an obnoxious back seat driver). The one thing that always irritated me about the Vineyard is that everyone is on a 12 week rotation. Now, I don't know if EVERY Vineyard does this (and to some degrees, it make a lot of sense) but I've always felt that kind of system is shooting yourself in the foot. There are some teachers who LOVE teaching children so much that taking them away from it is like taking away the air they breathe. Everyone gets tired and needs a break – when that time comes, let them take a break but it's nothing (IMO) that should be forced on them because of a "12 week" rule.

I have wondered if that was one of the reasons why most Vineyard's (at least around here) DON'T have middle and high school ministry during the regular Sunday service (seeing that it's hard enough to fill those slots while the other teachers are taking that required time off). That was one thing (and still is) that was/is very frustrating. I mean seriously – name me ONE 12, 13 or 14 yr. old who is going to care about the majority (if any) of the sermon being taught in the sanctuary. I my experience, it has been very distracting to hear every 5 min., "What time is it" and "How much longer is this going to last".

Maybe this wasn't exactly the input that you were looking for (though I know you're willing to read and listen), but that's one of the major things bugging me.

I share the frustration over family ministry. We have a model that works extremely well for adults but none of our efforts to include kids (I have two young kids) have been sustainable. The best effort we had was a family kinship/house group that met around a meal, a meal modeled after a Seder, with a short devotional teaching aimed at the youth and lots of worship songs. But this was not something we could pull off every week in our dispersed urban context. My wife and I have even checked out a few local traditional congregations thinking we could get our kids involved there – but everything is a really flat experience for us (either for the kids or us).