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	<title>Comments on: Should Missional Church Leaders Be Paid? (Prelude)</title>
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	<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude</link>
	<description>Welcome. I&#039;m a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I&#039;m involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture.</description>
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		<title>By: Pastoralia &#187; The Workers Wages 2: The Biblical Lens</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-570</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastoralia &#187; The Workers Wages 2: The Biblical Lens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-570</guid>
		<description>[...] series exploring the dynamics of clergy pay in missional churches. See previous installments: Prelude &#124; Part [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] series exploring the dynamics of clergy pay in missional churches. See previous installments: Prelude | Part [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pastoralia &#187; The Workers Wages Part 1: Framing the Discussion</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-515</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastoralia &#187; The Workers Wages Part 1: Framing the Discussion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:26:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-515</guid>
		<description>[...] began last weekend by asking the question, &#8220;Should missional church leaders be paid?&#8221; As I pointed out then, this topic has been broached recently by David Fitch and JR Rozko (who are [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] began last weekend by asking the question, &#8220;Should missional church leaders be paid?&#8221; As I pointed out then, this topic has been broached recently by David Fitch and JR Rozko (who are [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 21:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Adam - Thank you for your comments. I think you&#039;re expressing some of the frustration many of us have dealt with over years of professional ministry service. Thanks for being so transparent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam &#8211; Thank you for your comments. I think you&#8217;re expressing some of the frustration many of us have dealt with over years of professional ministry service. Thanks for being so transparent.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Lehman</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-509</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Lehman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As a PROFESSIONAL Christian (I get paid to fulfill my calling), I find the tension and expectations that come from the congregation seem to accompany my paycheck. 

Example: we have a teenage guy who NEEDS individual care from a man (his father passed away 2 years ago). His mother (a widow) has 4 children and they ALL need individual care from a male. 

I can&#039;t tell you how many men in our church have approached me and told me that I need to be ministering to him. Lots of godly men - who could be doing the exact thing they&#039;re asking me to do - approach me. 

The Problem: because their tithe money goes towards my paycheck, their imaginations have been limited to thinking of a professional minister to do work that could be done by laypeople. 

No one wants to plan retreats, or ski trips, or weekly teaching, or organizing small groups. I am paid to do that. I am not paid to do what laypeople ought to be doing. 

However, my paycheck seems to wipe that idea from their mind. 

That is the problem. The paycheck doesn&#039;t hurt my mission as it frees me up to spend lots of time my calling. However, it cripples the imagination of those in the body. 

And that problem might be big enough to justify me having less time to focus on my mission....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a PROFESSIONAL Christian (I get paid to fulfill my calling), I find the tension and expectations that come from the congregation seem to accompany my paycheck. </p>
<p>Example: we have a teenage guy who NEEDS individual care from a man (his father passed away 2 years ago). His mother (a widow) has 4 children and they ALL need individual care from a male. </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t tell you how many men in our church have approached me and told me that I need to be ministering to him. Lots of godly men &#8211; who could be doing the exact thing they&#8217;re asking me to do &#8211; approach me. </p>
<p>The Problem: because their tithe money goes towards my paycheck, their imaginations have been limited to thinking of a professional minister to do work that could be done by laypeople. </p>
<p>No one wants to plan retreats, or ski trips, or weekly teaching, or organizing small groups. I am paid to do that. I am not paid to do what laypeople ought to be doing. </p>
<p>However, my paycheck seems to wipe that idea from their mind. </p>
<p>That is the problem. The paycheck doesn&#8217;t hurt my mission as it frees me up to spend lots of time my calling. However, it cripples the imagination of those in the body. </p>
<p>And that problem might be big enough to justify me having less time to focus on my mission&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-501</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 22:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-501</guid>
		<description>Bryan - I like that your leadership team is actively trying to make the distinction between performance and equipping. I&#039;m optimistic enough about humanity that I genuinely think all pastors are trying to overcome those tendencies...but maybe I&#039;m naive. For me a critical question is, does the culture of professionalism/consumerism negate all our best intentions. Thanks for your excellent thoughts!

Ro - Iove that you&#039;re &quot;bi-vocational&quot; yet only get paid by one of those vocations : )  Actually, I think I&#039;ve landed in pretty much the same spot. Thanks for contributing your experiences. 

Steven - I didn&#039;t realize you were bi-vocational. I don&#039;t know why...but I like how you&#039;ve chosen to set your work within the context of the Daniel story. I&#039;d love to hear more about that sometime. 

Michael - Thanks for the link, I&#039;ll add it to the body of my post. 

JR - Great, thanks for pointing us to that interview!

Dave M - Thanks for your comments. I&#039;m really glad to have the perspective of someone who doesn&#039;t self identify as a &quot;leader.&quot; I think if more full-time pastors knew they sometimes appeared &quot;somewhat disconnected from the context&quot; they might rethink their weekly priorities. In all fairness, I know several full-time senior pastors who are aware of that and try to combat it. Thanks again Dave. 
 
Rick - Ben&#039;s pretty smart : )

snc - You make a great point about being careful regarding our other vocation. This isn&#039;t talked about enough IMO. 

Frank - Thanks for the transparency. Good thoughts, as always.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan &#8211; I like that your leadership team is actively trying to make the distinction between performance and equipping. I&#8217;m optimistic enough about humanity that I genuinely think all pastors are trying to overcome those tendencies&#8230;but maybe I&#8217;m naive. For me a critical question is, does the culture of professionalism/consumerism negate all our best intentions. Thanks for your excellent thoughts!</p>
<p>Ro &#8211; Iove that you&#8217;re &#8220;bi-vocational&#8221; yet only get paid by one of those vocations : )  Actually, I think I&#8217;ve landed in pretty much the same spot. Thanks for contributing your experiences. </p>
<p>Steven &#8211; I didn&#8217;t realize you were bi-vocational. I don&#8217;t know why&#8230;but I like how you&#8217;ve chosen to set your work within the context of the Daniel story. I&#8217;d love to hear more about that sometime. </p>
<p>Michael &#8211; Thanks for the link, I&#8217;ll add it to the body of my post. </p>
<p>JR &#8211; Great, thanks for pointing us to that interview!</p>
<p>Dave M &#8211; Thanks for your comments. I&#8217;m really glad to have the perspective of someone who doesn&#8217;t self identify as a &#8220;leader.&#8221; I think if more full-time pastors knew they sometimes appeared &#8220;somewhat disconnected from the context&#8221; they might rethink their weekly priorities. In all fairness, I know several full-time senior pastors who are aware of that and try to combat it. Thanks again Dave. </p>
<p>Rick &#8211; Ben&#8217;s pretty smart : )</p>
<p>snc &#8211; You make a great point about being careful regarding our other vocation. This isn&#8217;t talked about enough IMO. </p>
<p>Frank &#8211; Thanks for the transparency. Good thoughts, as always.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Emanuel</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-499</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Emanuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 21:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-499</guid>
		<description>Great question, so controversial. 

In the interest of transparency I am a pastor of what I would call a missional/emerging type congregation and although our board has decided a salary I should be paid I have not drawn a salary from the church in quite a few years now. But I do draw manse expenses and the church has gifted me small amounts of money in the past (to meet needs that arose - we do the same for other congregants who have found themselves in need). 

I do think that a minister is worth paying. But I think that many, like myself, don&#039;t do it for the money. If we had a larger financial base in our church I would probably draw the salary the church decided I should have. But we don&#039;t and so I don&#039;t, simply because I can afford not to. 

But here is the other side of it. I don&#039;t think that the minister of a missional model can afford to not be connected to the mission. So if their salary means they can seclude themselves in the church, then they might want to rethink that. Perhaps they could afford several paid ministers who were bi-vocational, or do what I have done - go back to school. School is not just a place of working out issues that come up in ministry but it is also part of where I practice being in our mission. 

I&#039;ve been bi-vocational much of my ministry life. So that is my bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great question, so controversial. </p>
<p>In the interest of transparency I am a pastor of what I would call a missional/emerging type congregation and although our board has decided a salary I should be paid I have not drawn a salary from the church in quite a few years now. But I do draw manse expenses and the church has gifted me small amounts of money in the past (to meet needs that arose &#8211; we do the same for other congregants who have found themselves in need). </p>
<p>I do think that a minister is worth paying. But I think that many, like myself, don&#8217;t do it for the money. If we had a larger financial base in our church I would probably draw the salary the church decided I should have. But we don&#8217;t and so I don&#8217;t, simply because I can afford not to. </p>
<p>But here is the other side of it. I don&#8217;t think that the minister of a missional model can afford to not be connected to the mission. So if their salary means they can seclude themselves in the church, then they might want to rethink that. Perhaps they could afford several paid ministers who were bi-vocational, or do what I have done &#8211; go back to school. School is not just a place of working out issues that come up in ministry but it is also part of where I practice being in our mission. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been bi-vocational much of my ministry life. So that is my bias.</p>
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		<title>By: snc</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-496</link>
		<dc:creator>snc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-496</guid>
		<description>I would add that bi-vocational is an exceellent model to follow and then as the church grows, or needs presents themselves, add other bi-vocational leaders.

From my experience of being a bi-vocational missional church planter, I would just add that one needs to be careful about what kind of work they perform on the other side.  Distraction, busyness, losing focus and passion can all occur if the other job takes up too much time and energy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that bi-vocational is an exceellent model to follow and then as the church grows, or needs presents themselves, add other bi-vocational leaders.</p>
<p>From my experience of being a bi-vocational missional church planter, I would just add that one needs to be careful about what kind of work they perform on the other side.  Distraction, busyness, losing focus and passion can all occur if the other job takes up too much time and energy.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick Meigs</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-495</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick Meigs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 20:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-495</guid>
		<description>Ben Sternke in his comment above has laid out my thinking on this pretty well. There is no dogmatic right or wrong, yet it is useful to export the possibilities. Thanks for posing the question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben Sternke in his comment above has laid out my thinking on this pretty well. There is no dogmatic right or wrong, yet it is useful to export the possibilities. Thanks for posing the question.</p>
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		<title>By: geoff holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-492</link>
		<dc:creator>geoff holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 19:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-492</guid>
		<description>jason, i&#039;m very much looking forward to this.  and wow, lot&#039;s of comments so far. 

geoff</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jason, i&#8217;m very much looking forward to this.  and wow, lot&#8217;s of comments so far. </p>
<p>geoff</p>
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		<title>By: Dave M</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/church/should-missional-church-leaders-be-paid-prelude/comment-page-1#comment-491</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 18:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=987#comment-491</guid>
		<description>I am not a pastor but from my own experiences I think bi-vocational is the one I would prefer for a leader of my own community.  I think its not only supported from what we see in the NT but it just makes sense practically.  Ive found that when pastors are full time they have more time to devote to their community but become somewhat disconnected from the context around them.  Some credibility is lost.  Also, Bi-Vo would also allow for multiple-leaders under the same budget.  How much has the full-time paid pastor affected the structure of church leadership?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not a pastor but from my own experiences I think bi-vocational is the one I would prefer for a leader of my own community.  I think its not only supported from what we see in the NT but it just makes sense practically.  Ive found that when pastors are full time they have more time to devote to their community but become somewhat disconnected from the context around them.  Some credibility is lost.  Also, Bi-Vo would also allow for multiple-leaders under the same budget.  How much has the full-time paid pastor affected the structure of church leadership?</p>
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