John Piper is biblical.

Perhaps he is, but that doesn’t really address the topic or the question.

When something is biblcial, enough is said.

Thanks for the contrast Jason.
It is interesting the motivation behind scaring someone into the Kingdom. The aspects of delivery as well as the message. I entered the Kingdom this way but it has scared me. Scared to the extent that you have to question the implications of a ‘God of love’, and if they are actually compatible. I think they are but not to the extent that is portrayed in this clip. (or my conversion)
I’d also add that I think NT Wright is biblical as well! Like all theology it is just what aspects you want to read into and emphasis in your beliefs.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

To fear in the right way but to fear nonetheless

[Sorry this was meant for the last comment]

……we are not to be ‘angry, hell fire’ preachers only but balanced in love and compassion. Like Jesus when He said;

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

You can’t escape the wrath of God? Really? Lot, his daughters?

It sounds like he is saying, what is at stake is that we are going to go to hell if we are wicked. From my understanding of the biblical picture, what is at stake is that you will not be participating in the kingdom of god/you are not currently participating in the kingdom of God.

So powerlessness at the pulpit is attributed to us not really believing that we could end up in hell. So the only way to obtain “power” is to make sure people know what is at stake. Sounds like every commercial I watch.

We are all passionate about relieving suffering? Yes, I would say we are, but I don’t know if that is the biblical model (if we want to talk biblical). I see it more as an invitation into intentional, redemptive suffering rather than relieving it (which is where I believe Hell fits into the picture; hell has a redemptive role not a punishing one).

Towards the end of this clip, he just goes into the same rants I’ve heard all my life. Real love is tough, real love would do this…

And who is Edwards

Yeah, I don’t ever remember ever hearing of Edwards either but to get to the actual point….

I actually had to listen to Piper’s comments a few times and again to Wright’s comments (which I do find fascinating).

I think what Wright’s comments SEEM to be pointing to is the belief of which Piper says this Edwards is appauled(sp) by….Annihilationism. (who knew that was an actual belief). So in short – it does sound like and seem that Piper is contradicting what Wright is saying.

A couple of quick comments:

First, Piper is a bit of a Jonathan Edwards scholar. That’s who he’s referring to in this clip.

Second, Wright has stated he leans toward Conditionalism, which many consider to be a variant of Annihilationism. However, I don’t think it’s necessary to infer that from his video blurb.

Finally, it’s interesting that Matthew quoted Matt 10:28, because it’s a pretty strong Annihilationist passage : )

John Piper shouting about hell is not my idea of a sunday morning meditation…

what I like is that he doesn’t say here that God needs to send some people to hell to prove His glory, as some calvinists would do, but that he calls to mission. I appr’eciate that at least he seems to give the impression that we should do all we can to save some more from the ‘Wrath of God’. But If I word it this way it suddenly sounds very weird…

I see no reason why he would be more biblical than NTW… And they surely contradict each other; otherwise they both would not write books against the others opinion… But they both look at the bible through a different grid and are faithful to the bible as seen through their eyes.

Or do I sound too postmodern now?

What I don’t understand is that Piper seems to belittle those who apply “bandaids” …which seems to deny/gloss over/ignore the fact that applying those bandaids may be part of the process of extracting the tumor. Christ came healing and feeding while proclaiming the good news. Is the good news only good because one day we will be joined with Christ one day? Or is it good news because we are joined with Christ immediately, right now. Those “band aids” are the significant proof that the good news is real and that the promise is real.

I really should just quote scripture to make my point.
In one of the few places where Jesus mentions hell, Jesus says that those who do not provide food, drink, clothing, shelter and care to the “least of these” will go to hell. Matthew 25:31-46.

So I think bandaids are pretty crucial to avoiding God’s wrath.

I would say both men have a biblical view of Hell insofar as I’m sure both could convincingly argue their doctrine using scripture. Piper represents the traditional evangelical view of Hell, which I grew up believing. Wright’s interpretation sounds very close to C.S. Lewis’. The problem I have with what Piper says in this clip is not so much his interpretation of the reality or characteristics of Hell, but in his application – I don’t believe his application of his doctrine of Hell is biblical. Neither Jesus nor Paul used Hell as a tool to motivate believers to evangelize, nor did they use it to scare unbelievers into belief. So whatever the specifics of our views about Hell, I think it is important that we make sure our beliefs resonate in a way that is consistent with what we see in the grand scheme of scripture.

Piper getting all worked up over this I think is just plain silly. So is trying to convert people by scaring them in to heaven. You can believe hell is ceasing to exist or being eternally tormented, neither sounds like a good option to me but people who reject God will say, “I’ll just party in hell with all my friends” or they say “I’ll just cease to exist” and they really don’t care either way. Piper seems to be saying that by believing and teaching conditionalism you lose the power to convert people. That’s just plain silly.

What if all these preachers and leaders stopped wasting all their time and energy on arguing and condemning each other for their differing theological opinions and started using all that energy to join forces and actually disciple the body of Christ to have a real relationship with Christ and therefor have the power to really change the world?

To see the little amount of ‘honour and respect’ given to Piper here is a real reflection of where many of you are theologically.

The very fact that a number of you had never heard of Jonathan Edwards is astounding – considering he was involved in one of the greatest revivals in your country! –The Great Awakening anyone?

I suggest you stop focussing on your silly little, trife and weak emergent centered garbage and read the men of old and your Bibles.

Cut your teeth on the Rock.

“Piper getting all worked up over this I think is just plain silly. So is trying to convert people by scaring them in to heaven.”

Yeah, a few people have mentioned that in similar ways above.

“You can believe hell is ceasing to exist or being eternally tormented, neither sounds like a good option to me but people who reject God will say, “I’ll just party in hell with all my friends” or they say “I’ll just cease to exist” and they really don’t care either way.”

I agree. However, I personally think *maybe* (perhaps) Piper’s point might have been – let’s not lose sight of how horrible hell really is because depending on the view (one might have about it) it can be easy to forget what’s at stake and some people may actually start to believe that hell “may not be that bad after all”.

Some people – if given the option – might just think it’s better to eventually not exist any more than to be tormented for all eternity. (the lesser of the evils so-to-speak). That if they can “hang on in hell for a while” then they will just cease to exist anyway and therefore….no more punishment. Though, I do agree again that neither scenario sounds appealing to me in the least.

This clip only allowed us about 5 min. worth of Piper’s preaching (not enough to get the full “story” or glimpse of his style of preaching), however, anyone who has spent ANY amount of time in a free will baptist church (or denominations similar to it) is very used to hearing those tactics. Personally, it’s one of the many reasons I left that church a decade and a half ago. There’s so much about in the message of Christ’s love, his forgiveness, mercy, grace (and so on) to win others to Christ. Because these tactics that Piper *seemed* to be using can be seen as “scare tactics” – where others come to Christ based on the fear of what will happen to them if they don’t – people with my background (and similar background) will just automatically be turned off by it and just numb to it’s effects.

Again though, we didn’t exactly see his whole message so what came off as typical scare tactics could have been instead something different and misinterpreted. I’ll be willing to leave the door of opportunity open.

“To see the little amount of ‘honour and respect’ given to Piper here is a real reflection of where many of you are theologically.

The very fact that a number of you had never heard of Jonathan Edwards is astounding – considering he was involved in one of the greatest revivals in your country! –The Great Awakening anyone?

I suggest you stop focussing on your silly little, trife and weak emergent centered garbage and read the men of old and your Bibles.

Cut your teeth on the Rock.”
=======================================================

Matthew – here’s the thing. Until I was in my early 30′s, I had no idea who John CALVIN even was! And I grew UP in (as I said above) a HUGELY evangelical, fundamentalist denomination.

Theology fascinates the DAYLIGHTS out of me. I LOVE getting into discussions of that matter…..BUT do you know WHY I don’t find it important to actually KNOW theology backwards and forwards? Do you want to know WHY I don’t find it the least bit important (nor did it bother me that I wasn’t aware of whom) to know whom Calvin, or (now) Jonathan Edwards (though I may HAVE heard the name before) was? Do you want to know WHY I don’t find it important to know what Calvinism is as compared to all the OTHER “isms” out there?

BECAUSE it’s NOT vital for mine, yours or ANYONE else’s SALVATION! None of any of the above is VITAL for our salvation in Jesus Christ. Believing that he IS the son of God, that he WAS born of a virgin, that he IS apart of the trinity, that he DID die on the cross for our sins, that he DID rise again from that Cold, dark grave, that he IS sitting on the right hand side of our Father, that Whosoever believeth in HIM shall NOT parish but have ever lasting life – that we are saved by (his) Grace through (our) faith (in him) ALONE! That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less. So you can talk Calvinism, theology, Edwards all you want….no problem BUT it’s not going to get you a better seat in heaven or even reserve one for you in the first place.

Have a good day.

Matthew – Your next comment here needs to be an apology, otherwise you can consider this one your last.

1. Nobody here has disrespected Piper. Some have merely disagreed with him.

2. In the video, Piper only refers to “Edwards.” Unless someone is familiar with Piper’s interest in him, it’s entirely reasonable they wouldn’t know he was referring to Jonathan Edwards. Not everyone who reads or comments here is so entrenched in theological discourse that the name “Edwards” immediately brings to mind the 18th century theologian. Moreover, that’s not a bad thing.

3. Not everyone who commented on this post is a U.S. citizen (e.g. “one of the greatest revivals in your country!”).

Your inability to participate in civil discourse and engage in sympathetic consideration of others viewpoints is truly astonishing. Your latest comments are insulting to the other people here and the level of shrillness you’ve degenerated to is roughly that of a spoiled child. It’s time to grow up or go away.

Gone.

I’m not a US citizen, but I do know that Piper is a big fan Jonathan Edwards. Only because ‘internet calvinists’ have made me aware of it…

I just see no reason why the US would be more important than china or Micronesia, and why J Edwards would be more important than J Wesley (or J Wimber) or even Sadhu sundar sigh or St-Francis… I just don’t see why the name of Edwards would have more authority than any other figure in the great and diverse tradition of christianity…

All else that I could say has been said already by a lot of other commenters here… good discussion…

shalom

I’m just going to say “Ditto” to EVERYTHING Julie said!

I too was raised Southern Baptist, had the same experience and the same outcome as Julie. I agree that Piper’s point could have been the danger of watering down Hell……….. I just don’t think threatening people with Hell actually works anymore:)

As for your second post on Calvin, theology and what is important to you……..well, my thoughts and feelings exactly:)

I would also like to add that I am learning so much on this blog!

I too find the theology discussions interesting and enlightening but I am always rather shocked 7 surprised when Christians attack others and get down right nasty for disagreeing with them?!

I can get that way when I feel like someone is attacking one of my children, grandchildren, some I love deeply…………..maybe some people feel that way about their theology?!!!

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