Comments on: Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads Welcome. I'm a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I'm involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture. Wed, 16 May 2012 14:35:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Pastoralia » Top 10 Least Popular Posts of 2010 http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-2852 Pastoralia » Top 10 Least Popular Posts of 2010 Fri, 31 Dec 2010 22:01:05 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-2852 [...] Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads [...] [...] Vineyard Churches at the Crossroads [...]

]]> By: Jana http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-1984 Jana Wed, 30 Jun 2010 12:36:29 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-1984 It's a good point about example being the qualification not the currency. Yes para-church has been on my mind of late. If you think about it, mission-oriented people have for decades left the "church" to practice their call full time in christian and non-christian agency's. If the church want's to reclaim that missional purpose (and I have heard so many leaders moan about para-church organisations) it must also learn that it cannot use the same structures to support that kind of activity that are use to support attractional activity. There is a reason this kind of activity has not been able to flourish in traditional church structures (God always gets his stuff done one way or other), but am yet to see that this is any different in missional communities - or how it might be? Maybe it's ok for these sorts of purposes to be fulfilled at arms length from the congregational or teaching and worship focussed life of the church? Perplexed by the whole thing! Thanks for your blog, always bringing a challenge or clarity! It’s a good point about example being the qualification not the currency. Yes para-church has been on my mind of late. If you think about it, mission-oriented people have for decades left the “church” to practice their call full time in christian and non-christian agency’s. If the church want’s to reclaim that missional purpose (and I have heard so many leaders moan about para-church organisations) it must also learn that it cannot use the same structures to support that kind of activity that are use to support attractional activity. There is a reason this kind of activity has not been able to flourish in traditional church structures (God always gets his stuff done one way or other), but am yet to see that this is any different in missional communities – or how it might be? Maybe it’s ok for these sorts of purposes to be fulfilled at arms length from the congregational or teaching and worship focussed life of the church?

Perplexed by the whole thing!

Thanks for your blog, always bringing a challenge or clarity!

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-1978 Jason Coker Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:14:55 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-1978 Jana - Very insightful comments! I think you're pretty spot-on at every point - although I might want to shift organic leadership slightly away from "example to follow" and more toward a person who catalyzes by changing the structure of how we meet and shifting the conversation by knowing what questions to ask. Christian leaders must have integrity, but integrity is more the qualification for leadership, not the currency of leadership. Also, BTW, your comments about para-church orgs is right on, and it's not something I hear very often. Thanks for the comments! Jana – Very insightful comments! I think you’re pretty spot-on at every point – although I might want to shift organic leadership slightly away from “example to follow” and more toward a person who catalyzes by changing the structure of how we meet and shifting the conversation by knowing what questions to ask. Christian leaders must have integrity, but integrity is more the qualification for leadership, not the currency of leadership.

Also, BTW, your comments about para-church orgs is right on, and it’s not something I hear very often.

Thanks for the comments!

]]> By: Jana http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-1977 Jana Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:26:30 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-1977 Organic movements and organisations also require supportive structures. What do they look like? Here are some fledgling thoughts, would love to hear your POV on this. That missional and attractional are at a polarity makes a lot of sense to me and I think that has a bearing on or is beared upon by the whole organic vs institutional thing. Attractional church cannot function without professionalised leadership, there are fewer leaders leading lots of people and you can't do that without the time that professionalisation affords. Leaders in attractional churches lead by coordinating and administrating and people follow by buying into a programme or project. We all know how costly programmes are! Leaders in a truly organic-missional church lead by example, people aren't buying into a programme they have set up but into a lifestyle that they want to be discipled into. Even an organic model needs some supportive structure to protect, release and support people for missional lifestyles (and to patch them up when it all goes wrong). what does that structure look like? I have no clue! Also any thoughts on "para-church" (much as I hate the term), is that where the church's mission got taken care of under the christendom model? As churches pursue mission embedded more closely in church life, do we also need to borrow some of the supportive arrangements which exist in mission agency's, NGO's etc which are built to support missional rather than attractional life? Organic movements and organisations also require supportive structures. What do they look like? Here are some fledgling thoughts, would love to hear your POV on this. That missional and attractional are at a polarity makes a lot of sense to me and I think that has a bearing on or is beared upon by the whole organic vs institutional thing. Attractional church cannot function without professionalised leadership, there are fewer leaders leading lots of people and you can’t do that without the time that professionalisation affords. Leaders in attractional churches lead by coordinating and administrating and people follow by buying into a programme or project. We all know how costly programmes are! Leaders in a truly organic-missional church lead by example, people aren’t buying into a programme they have set up but into a lifestyle that they want to be discipled into.

Even an organic model needs some supportive structure to protect, release and support people for missional lifestyles (and to patch them up when it all goes wrong). what does that structure look like? I have no clue! Also any thoughts on “para-church” (much as I hate the term), is that where the church’s mission got taken care of under the christendom model? As churches pursue mission embedded more closely in church life, do we also need to borrow some of the supportive arrangements which exist in mission agency’s, NGO’s etc which are built to support missional rather than attractional life?

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-424 Jason Coker Tue, 12 Jan 2010 05:58:15 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-424 Ardell, I think that's very true, and I think there are a variety of Vineyard churches across the spectrum that have demonstrated a re-embrace of a few traditional liturgical practices. Ken Wilson's church in Ann Arbor has even re-imagined the "radical middle" concept as a "radical center," turning the linear continuum into a quadrant that includes spaces for liturgical and social justice space. I've used the offices of prayer on and off and have settled into a few other practices as well such as the use of prayer beads and the stations of the cross. AlI that is pretty widespread, I think. I guess I took Hunter's comment as a prediction of large-scale return to liturgical traditions, but maybe I misunderstood. Still, there's a difference between appropriating some traditional elements and becoming Anglican or Catholic or Orthodox. I affirm much in those traditions, but some of my theological underpinnings preclude me from joining any of them as an adherent. Ardell, I think that's very true, and I think there are a variety of Vineyard churches across the spectrum that have demonstrated a re-embrace of a few traditional liturgical practices. Ken Wilson's church in Ann Arbor has even re-imagined the "radical middle" concept as a "radical center," turning the linear continuum into a quadrant that includes spaces for liturgical and social justice space. I've used the offices of prayer on and off and have settled into a few other practices as well such as the use of prayer beads and the stations of the cross. AlI that is pretty widespread, I think.

I guess I took Hunter's comment as a prediction of large-scale return to liturgical traditions, but maybe I misunderstood. Still, there's a difference between appropriating some traditional elements and becoming Anglican or Catholic or Orthodox. I affirm much in those traditions, but some of my theological underpinnings preclude me from joining any of them as an adherent.

]]> By: Ardell http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-423 Ardell Mon, 11 Jan 2010 20:50:09 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-423 I think we are in the middle of a liturgial revival - it may not be a large "revival", but I think it is happening in small ways. People are beginning to back to history and find comfort in the structure and rhythm of the liturgy. Part of this is the fact that the rest of our lives are so crazy and mixed, it is nice to find something that is solid and unchanging. I know I have been personally drawn to offices of prayer - praying at set times with set prayer that have been past down for centuries. My sister-in-law, who came from a standard-independent evangelical church, recently joined the Anglican Church (under the Rwanda diocese) and has found great comfort in their transition. She also mentioned that she is seeing a trend of young people moving toward different liturgy practices - like the prayer offices (she is a librarian/teacher at Trinity International University in Chicago). The 24-7 Prayer movement would be another example of people finding new meanings in "old practices". (I am talking more about their boiler rooms/modern-monasteries then their prayer meetings at local churches). As I write this, I had a thought...maybe the "revival" isn't people going to high liturgical churches, but more of people taking liturgical practices and incorporating them into their lives and the practices of the low church culture.... I think we are in the middle of a liturgial revival – it may not be a large "revival", but I think it is happening in small ways. People are beginning to back to history and find comfort in the structure and rhythm of the liturgy. Part of this is the fact that the rest of our lives are so crazy and mixed, it is nice to find something that is solid and unchanging.

I know I have been personally drawn to offices of prayer – praying at set times with set prayer that have been past down for centuries. My sister-in-law, who came from a standard-independent evangelical church, recently joined the Anglican Church (under the Rwanda diocese) and has found great comfort in their transition. She also mentioned that she is seeing a trend of young people moving toward different liturgy practices – like the prayer offices (she is a librarian/teacher at Trinity International University in Chicago).

The 24-7 Prayer movement would be another example of people finding new meanings in "old practices". (I am talking more about their boiler rooms/modern-monasteries then their prayer meetings at local churches).

As I write this, I had a thought…maybe the "revival" isn't people going to high liturgical churches, but more of people taking liturgical practices and incorporating them into their lives and the practices of the low church culture….

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-422 Jason Coker Mon, 11 Jan 2010 12:39:08 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-422 I really agree with your assessment, both about the use of the word missional and the idea of a revival of religion. The symbols must be recast in order to function as sysmbols. Perhaps they can with a generation for who they are essentially a blank slate, and I'm sure that will be the case for certain temperament types. But as I consider it, I keep remembering something Don Williams has often said: "Religion is our last line of defense against the living God." Even if Todd is right, for how many people will it simply be that last line of defense? I really agree with your assessment, both about the use of the word missional and the idea of a revival of religion. The symbols must be recast in order to function as sysmbols. Perhaps they can with a generation for who they are essentially a blank slate, and I'm sure that will be the case for certain temperament types. But as I consider it, I keep remembering something Don Williams has often said: "Religion is our last line of defense against the living God." Even if Todd is right, for how many people will it simply be that last line of defense?

]]> By: scott http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-421 scott Mon, 11 Jan 2010 04:13:39 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-421 A few thoughts.... Missional vs. Attractional Missional is a language which is not to far removed from evangelism. It has now become palatable for mainstream churches. In the process the original radical nature has somehow been watered down. Institutional vs Organic The liturgial revival will only take place if new meanings are found in old practices. It will be interesting if this can happen. I think there will be a small interest but not a revival. (Maybe it is the type of people Tod is hanging out with?) A few thoughts….
Missional vs. Attractional
Missional is a language which is not to far removed from evangelism. It has now become palatable for mainstream churches. In the process the original radical nature has somehow been watered down.
Institutional vs Organic
The liturgial revival will only take place if new meanings are found in old practices. It will be interesting if this can happen. I think there will be a small interest but not a revival. (Maybe it is the type of people Tod is hanging out with?)

]]> By: Jason Coker http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-420 Jason Coker Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:40:37 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-420 Oh Tom, I know you generally disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but it would be more helpful if you contributed the substance of your reasoning (back-handed flattery is not a support for your argument). I agree the word missional will likely turn out to be faddish or trendy, but that doesn't mean the discussion is unimportant. Faddish terms don't necessarily equate to faddish ideas. When language becomes trite - as it always does - and old terms evolve to connote faddish ideas, it's helpful to coin new terms in order to renew the discussion of older, more important ideas. That is what the missional conversation is all about. Maybe I'm wrong, but, if so, it would be helpful if you contributed an argument rather than merely a conclusion. Oh Tom, I know you generally disagree with me, and I'm fine with that, but it would be more helpful if you contributed the substance of your reasoning (back-handed flattery is not a support for your argument). I agree the word missional will likely turn out to be faddish or trendy, but that doesn't mean the discussion is unimportant. Faddish terms don't necessarily equate to faddish ideas. When language becomes trite – as it always does – and old terms evolve to connote faddish ideas, it's helpful to coin new terms in order to renew the discussion of older, more important ideas. That is what the missional conversation is all about. Maybe I'm wrong, but, if so, it would be helpful if you contributed an argument rather than merely a conclusion.

]]> By: steven hamilton http://pastoralia.org/church/vineyard-churches-at-the-crossroads/comment-page-1#comment-419 steven hamilton Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:20:58 +0000 http://pastoralia.org/?p=895#comment-419 meant to add that in simple form, michael frost understands "missional" as the radical re-orientation of the organizing principle of the church as the mission of God. i think that is where i land... meant to add that in simple form, michael frost understands "missional" as the radical re-orientation of the organizing principle of the church as the mission of God. i think that is where i land…

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