[...] Is Not Enough From an outstanding post on the problems with contemporary evangelism, at Pastoralia: For most regular folks who don’t believe in Christ, seeing churches and Christians stake out [...]

Nice post. Although if you truly were a “post-Christian Missionary” you would have linked phrenology to this:

http://www.amazon.com/Phrenology-Roots/dp/B00007B9DP

That’s why I have friends like you Chris : )

Thank you for this post Jason! You have expressed so eloquently what I was trying to say in my response to your article on Piper and Hell and Theology.

People don’t want to hear about my theology because they don’t believe in it, any of it. People are drawn to someone who is so surrendered to Christ that that person now resembles Christ and interacts and responses like Christ would with those around them. That gets their interest. Of course doing that day in and day out is the challenge and does require a discipline that few of us have.

People who bicker with other Christians over their theology to the point of assassinating the others character only do more damage to the church in ever reaching anyone for Christ. Maybe they do that because it is easier than living a life like Christ?

Nice thoughts. This one, in particular, was spot on:

We have to take responsibility for actually becoming competent practitioners of the vocation to which we have been called through the person we claim to have found within those sacred pages.

Cheers.

Fantastic! I am so glad you are blogging up a storm. Keep it up.

Thanks for this post Jason. I actually believe the Bible IS sufficient for mission in that it a) tells us what to believe (or more specifically points us to the Person in whom to believe) and b) shows us how our belief should resonate into our lives/communities (I realize that’s an over-simplification). The b) part is obviously where the Bible is useful for mission. I get what you’re saying though, that the Bible isn’t sufficient on its own as a tool for us to use in engaging those pagans with what they should believe without first showing them what that belief means.

Very well said (written). This deserves an expansive “Hear, hear….”

Thank you!

Mom, JR, Bill & almost M - Thanks for the comments!

Clay - I hear you, and in that sense I agree : )

I have been struggling with “christianity” over the past few years. Although, my faith in God and Jesus was secure, I was having a hard time figuring out what it meant to walk that out. Every church I have been in, my entire life, has split. That is a total of 4 churches in 32 years of life, 25 years if you consider I didn’t start going back to church until this year. It has been hard for me because the “christianity” I see is so broken, and not what I feel like God intended for us. I did throw the baby out with bath water for a while, I just needed to clear my head of all the religious jargon. I am still seeking what God wants for me, reading the bible free of all the need to analyze and pull theology from it has helped. I like to read the parts in red especially, since those are Jesus’ words. My spirit connects with that. Living like Jesus sure would cause a ruckus that’s for sure!

Thanks for the post, very thought provoking.

I appreciate your honest comments Annie. I think you’d find your experience is very common. Please feel free to pitch in anytime.

Great post. Love the story about the corporate chaplain (awkward). Phrenology… nice, didn’t know about it. I appreciate the observation about the shrillness in fighting over a dwindling market share. I don’t think I’m in those theological debates much, but I sense that certain groups seem to be shriller these days.

One interesting thought…. seminaries were designed to give pastors “professional” status. Churchy people still expect their pastors to be professionals but I agree with you that mainstream culture does not. I think there is a temptation for pastors or ministers to become trained counselors or MBA’s as a way to be taken more seriously. The motivation to be a bi-vocational pastor could be partially to have a voice and to gain respect in a world that does not respect pastors. Thoughts?

Ty, I absolutely agree. I think in some cases the bi-vocation attraction is to gain a voice (as a missionary), in some cases it’s a desire to get back to a kind of life that is closer to regular folks, and in some cases it’s simply out of necessity in order to better pay the bills : )

Also… one of the things I appreciate about North Park (where I attend seminary) is their approach to theology. They do not teach the traditional systematic theology but focus more on the ways that doctrines, methods, and tasks of theological reflection are appropriated in the context of the church and engaged with the world. I really think seminaries need to shift from teaching people the “facts” about God… and teach people how to think and reflect theologically, in community, for God’s mission in the world.

this reminds me of my friend, who has a much more positive story in a similar vein. my friend works as a contractor here, but the company has a lot of former military or at least those with some experience in the military, so perhaps right there is the difference that they have a cultural understanding of a ‘chaplaincy’. and yet, he has an actual job on a team with others (not as a chaplain), but because he is bi-vocational and has had to explain his bi-vocational-ness (because he has to say no to some opportunities for advancement, some speacial meetings, etc.), and rather than imposing that chaplain role or having that exclusvely as his role, he has unofficially become the chaplain to people in the company. they come to his office to talk and ask him to pray for them, and yet he still does work with them, he doesn’t have to be a professional with psychology degrees, because that isn’t his main job or purpose within the company, but because they know he does this ‘pastoring-thing’ on the side, it gives him some sort of equity with others and they seek him out, even ask him theological-type questions.

i thnk this is an interesting phenomenon that i have witnessed in my own bi-vocation as well, and this works precisely because he (and i) doesn’t rely on ‘credentials’ and an official role as counselor or whatever but others experience him in the day-to-day operations of the office and this fosters relationship and then helps to open opportunties, as i said not necessarily for him to reach out but for others to reach out to him…all he needs to do is ‘be available’…

this also makes me consider how i have witnessed myself that people feel safe because relationship is based on something else than being a professional and my ‘amateur status’ works for me in these situations…they feel free to take-or-leave what is brought out of an interaction, and even push back somewhat, which is really good because i typically do not textproof my interaction, but don’t always shy away from explaining a broader underlying theme from Jesus and the Bible of course, but without hitting them over the head with my dizzying references to ancient scriptures…and this seems to go well too…

ok, probably rambled on more than i wanted (hey, i got the time, i’m stuck in my second blizzard in a week!) just thought i would share that piece of how something similar but not quite the same worked (well is till working) rather in a good way…

Steven - I’m really glad you shared this because I wouldn’t want to give the impression that in order for Christians to have a strong impact in the world/marketplace they must be therapeutic professionals. Quite the opposite. My only point here was that we can’t rely on an inherent respect for the text of scripture. But the fact is, through the person of Christ, one can have a much strong and more subversive impact as a non-professional minister or counselor.

Thanks again, great stuff.

actually – being the both/and kind guy i am – i think it is worthy – in a missional-incarnational kind-of-way – to call people into those places that they can be incarnational, whether it is in a therapeutic role within community – professional or voluntary or otherwise.

i feel like ‘positioning ourselves’ well to embody the gospel becomes really, really important in the post-Christendom context; for instance, even though i am bi-vocational (and am not particularly looking to have a melt-down being tri-vocational) i have been exploring volunteer opportunities at a local community project called the anne arundel conflict resolution center (go figure, it was started years ago by the local society of friends)…but it is a place to position myself as a peace-maker (utilizing listening skills and other good mediation skills) to embody the gospel in a broader community context; i think this exploration is critical for us as leaders, because they train volunteer mediators to help in disputes that are sent their way from the local courts and business associatiosn to other community groups coming to them…and actually being peace-makers in very specific disputes (while actually practicing our biblical models of this, but not necessarily using the bible as an authority in this context) (thus i agree with what i see as your contention vis-a-vis “being the type of person who is formed by the biblical witness” from “throwing the bible at everyone every chance i get” because they don’t believe (automatically) that it has the autority i feel it has)

all to say: whether professional or volunteer, let’s encourage all into these types of subversive activities, which are subversive n the best possible ways….i love it!!

ok, gotta go shovel all this accumulating snow again…

Agreed. Both/and definitely. I have another friend who is also doing corporate chaplaincy and he’s working hard to qualify himself as a professional in that niche. Plus, he’s good at it.

But your first comments caused me to realize that it would be easy to see a bias in the article toward professionally qualified counselors, etc. and that wasn’t my intention.

Both the beauty and ugliness of blog writing for me is that it’s almost always a first draft and a half : )

actually, i didn’t see it as your bias, but how you were explaining the bias of our culture (i give you the benefit of the doubt of being brilliantly insightful )

because i think that bias is there in our culture…we treat ‘professionals’ very different from ‘amateurs’ – in good and bad ways. in good ways, we take them a little more seriously. in bad ways, there is probably less give-and-take and probably less transparency, because if we disagree we might keep it to ourselves because we don’t want them to criticize us because we aren’t experts and they are;

Steven,
Great thoughts – I really like how you identified how being the “official-credentialed” person often works against us, but being a “work-alongside” person provides the space to earn leadership and authority. Character-based leadership prevails over position-based leadership every time! Thanks for your story.

“Character-based leadership prevails over position-based leadership every time!”

Thanks Ty, you just rendered my 1000 word post in 10 words. You’re killing me here ; )

Ah. Thanks for sparking and facilitating these great discussions Jason!

I agree on the need for the both/and. Personally, I have spoken with a number of pastors that are either doing something else (serving as a police officer, range of employment options, teaching English to immigrants, etc.) or doing everything possible to delay letting people they meet know they are a pastor. The reason they share for both of these approaches is that they are dismissed or people interact with them in a very different way once they are viewed as the church guy if some level of trust has not already been established. My experience in overseas post-Christian contexts is that we can relate as clergy and have strong relations with those in the church or we can relate as a man on the street and have strong relations with the man on the street. If Jesus is permeating our lives, family, and relationships, it is practically impossible to keep from having numerous, deep spiritual conversations when relating as the latter.

I think that character-based leadership is something both the church and the world need. Sometimes christians hide out in the church, when their gifts and voice are needed so desperately in the world. That voice shouldn’t just be declaring scripture verses, but speaking in love of a life with Christ. Can the church get on board with this? Please?

This post was cited in Reddit — http://reddit.com — today. That’s why you’re getting a lot of hits. That’s how I got here.

I am one of those who calls myself a “former christian”. I was born (1944) and raised Methodist. My falling out of christianity began when I was in the fourth grade and was complete by the sixth grade, even though I went to Sunday school and church every Sunday without fail. Religion pervaded my everyday life from prayers at every meal, bedtime prayers, prayers at the drop of a hat in school.

For years after reaching my majority it was “live and let live”. I didn’t much care what the christians did as long as they left me alone. What bothered me the most about christianity was the “Blue Laws” enacted at the behest of the christians. WTF do you mean I cannot shop before noon on Sunday? I let it slide as quaint tradition, an accommodation to to the superstitions of a backward and uneducated bunch of rubes. — Yes, I did think of it that way.

Then comes Jerry Falwell. Well, maybe it wasn’t Jerry himself, but Jerry personifies the articulate and charasmatic nutcase who stirred up his fellow christians to esentially overthrow the government and institute a christian theocracy. That made me mad.

So, now I’m the one who rats out my local school board to the ACLU when some dominionist jerk makes it his personal campaign to oppose teaching “good science” and to teach creationism in my local schools. Me 12, dominionists 0 at this writing.

Yes, christianity is irrelevant in a modern world. The bible is nothing more than the condensed and heavily edited mythological stories of bronze age nomadic tribesmen. The christian god has no more relevance than Norse, Roman, Egyptian, Pagan or any other mythology: quaint manifestations of time before serious inquiry into how things work and as a way to explain real world phenomena for which no scientific explanation was available. In 100BCE, there was no science to speak of, hence no rational explanation for physical happenings. In other words, an exercise in historical anthropology.

Given that leaders of our government, Hillary Clinton for example, are dominionists and members of “The Family”, it is incumbent upon me and other like minded persons to stamp out superstition and to assure that their generation is the last generation of christians elected to office.

At times I do envy those who find comfort in religion. Even when I believed as a kid, I never found comfort in it. Nonetheless, I know many, mostly my age, who do believe and find comfort in believing that on their passing they will go to a better place. All I ask is that they keep it to themselves and do not take it to the legislature.

This may be the only comment you get with a “different point of view”. The good news I see reflected in your point of view and that of your other comments before mine is a desire to be more Christ like. That is a good thing. Do unto others.

Rex - Thank you for your candid comments. I appreciate that you’ve stated your opposition to certain features of popular Christianity without directly attacking anyone here. Moreover, I think you’d find that there are many, many Christians who agree with several of the perspectives you’ve articulated (though, obviously not all of them) while still enjoying a sense of genuine knowledge of the person of Christ.

Thank you for your very measured response.

You are quite right. I do resent the behavior of certain flavors of christianity, specificially those who would infringe my constitutional rights by making their flavor of christianity the law of the land. I do, indeed, work hard at keeping those nutcases in check where I can. I work hard at gentle deconversion where possible, with some success, especially among late adolescents and young adults. In my circles, however, there just aren’t too many religious people left.

What I also resent is that some mainstream christians, maybe the likes of you and your following, are not also denouncing the dominionist christians. Your silence on the issue is your agreement with them. So, in my eyes, you and those who do not denounce the dominionists are part of the problem, the enemy.

How do you feel about you and your followers making a big, loud, in your face public denouncement of the dominionists and those who would bring a christian agenda to the legislature to be made the law of the land? — Inquiring minds want to know.

“Inquiring minds want to know.”

Inquiring minds or angry minds? If you actually are curious only to be with more knowledge on the matter (and not for purposes to use it as more arsenal in what comes off as complete bitterness and vindictiveness) then I can personally tell you from personal experience that I find denominations as relevant as a third nostril. I find the arrogant self righteous thinking (the “we’re the only denomination that has the correct view”) from these denominations appauling(sp). However, that’s not an issue that’s only reserved for denominations but for ALL human beings whether you attend a church or not. Imperfection and sin infects us all.

My personal bitterness geared toward denominations is a problem that I hopefully won’t take to the grave but that God will indeed deliver me from. However, it’s not only bitterness towards denominations that gives me a bad taste in my mouth. When you’re following religion – any religion will do. Pick a card – any card because it doesn’t matter. At the end of the day, you still feel empty and cold. Having a relationship with Christ is very different from religion and unfortunately ALL churches (denominational or no) have a problem with allowing religion to creep in a poison the souls of the family of God. The reason being is that although one becomes a Christian does not mean your humanity is no more and it’s our humanity that will settle for second best (religion) every time.

Rex - Pointed words. There’s plenty to respond to, but I suppose it goes without saying that you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about me, and many others as well. There are plenty of Christian streams that make public statements against what you call “dominionist” Christians, and there are those who live radically different kinds of lives. It wouldn’t take much poking around on your part to find those groups if you really cared to.

As for me, well, I do on occasion make public statements about the contradictory insanity of followers of Jesus trying to conquer culture (if you were a regular here you would know that already). However, there are two things that keep me from carrying that banner loudly: 1) I don’t care much one way or the other about popular politics. I just don’t think it matters much, and closely related, 2) I’m more personally concerned with actually trying to live out an alternative form of Christianity, so naturally that tends to be the focus of this blog.

Cheers.

[...] The author makes good sense, for those with an ear to hear. No one is disparaging the bible or holy Scriptures, but he is making a point that we have to understand our audience. Hat tip to Europe bound Ken and from Pastoralia: [...]

[...] Why The Bible Is Insufficient For Mission [...]

[...] Why The Bible Is Insufficient For Mission [...]