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	<title>Comments on: Pat Robertson Falls From the Ladder of Being (And So Do We)</title>
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	<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls</link>
	<description>Welcome. I&#039;m a husband, a father, an ordained minister, and a postmodern pilgrim. You can check out some of the projects I&#039;m involved with below. In this space I mostly write about the intersections of Christianity and culture.</description>
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		<title>By: Pastoralia &#187; Book Review: Unprotected Texts, The Bible&#8217;s Surprising Contradictions About Sex and Desire</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-3044</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastoralia &#187; Book Review: Unprotected Texts, The Bible&#8217;s Surprising Contradictions About Sex and Desire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Feb 2011 00:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=961#comment-3044</guid>
		<description>[...] As I&#8217;ve argued before, being intellectually honest enough to live in the tension of irresolvable divergence is an important means of reflecting genuine Christian humility, or, what Leslie Newbigin called a &#8220;proper confidence.&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I&#8217;ve argued before, being intellectually honest enough to live in the tension of irresolvable divergence is an important means of reflecting genuine Christian humility, or, what Leslie Newbigin called a &#8220;proper confidence.&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Duke Lancaster</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-1006</link>
		<dc:creator>Duke Lancaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>To complete the thought, I agree that we must speak out decisively against the judgmentalism of our brothers, but we must do so with true humility and compassion. The same grace that we so easily bestow on the lost also completely covers the saints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To complete the thought, I agree that we must speak out decisively against the judgmentalism of our brothers, but we must do so with true humility and compassion. The same grace that we so easily bestow on the lost also completely covers the saints.</p>
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		<title>By: Duke Lancaster</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-1005</link>
		<dc:creator>Duke Lancaster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I do appreciate the perspective on Pat. I have said much dumber things in the past from a position of absolute confidence in my correctness that in hindsight I wish I had not said, nor would I say again. We are all in a progressive state of discipleship... even Pat... and God will teach him things through this firestorm. (agreed, my stupidity has a bit less impact)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do appreciate the perspective on Pat. I have said much dumber things in the past from a position of absolute confidence in my correctness that in hindsight I wish I had not said, nor would I say again. We are all in a progressive state of discipleship&#8230; even Pat&#8230; and God will teach him things through this firestorm. (agreed, my stupidity has a bit less impact)</p>
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		<title>By: Pastoralia &#187; Let The Looting of Haiti Begin</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-643</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastoralia &#187; Let The Looting of Haiti Begin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 00:49:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] this month, in a post on Pat Robertson and Haiti, I said, &#8220;Convergent thinking turns Haiti into a divine object-lesson or a pragmatic [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this month, in a post on Pat Robertson and Haiti, I said, &#8220;Convergent thinking turns Haiti into a divine object-lesson or a pragmatic [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Pastoralia &#187; Top 10 Pastoralia Articles This Month</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-632</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastoralia &#187; Top 10 Pastoralia Articles This Month</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 00:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Pat Robertson Falls From the Ladder of Being (And So Do We) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pat Robertson Falls From the Ladder of Being (And So Do We) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-557</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:36:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Please Bill, no apologies necessary. Like I said, you contributed good stuff to this post. Thanks for taking the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please Bill, no apologies necessary. Like I said, you contributed good stuff to this post. Thanks for taking the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-556</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jason, if that&#039;s just a riff, I need a new guitar :).

I apologize if my post seemed a bit confrontational.  That&#039;s not what I meant.  I am one of those people who scowls and pulls his lip when he thinks.  I appreciate your post and your response, and I&#039;m glad I followed Stephy&#039;s callout here.  I hope some other of her readers do, too.  She seems to have many that are smart and sharp and thoughtful.

Thanks for your restatements and clarifications and reminders.  

On the one hand, especially in the intellectualized and the abstract, it is not that difficult for me to appreciate compassion for Haitians or alcoholics.  How much more difficult to keep Robertson in mind as someone in need of grace, since he is so self-assured in his proclamation of what it is!  Some kind of statement seems appropriate, but I see you are right in how closely we must examine and suspect its source and manner and remember, &quot;that we ourselves have only been (re)included because of repentance and forgiveness&quot;.

I especially appreciate your putting it for me in the terms of my own question: &quot;It is not the incredulous denouncement of the self-righteous Pharisee over the tax collector who’s prayer is &#039;Thank you God for not making me like him!&#039;&quot;

It seems like a lot of time and energy and thought you topical bloggers expend, that people like me flit through and blithely consume.  So, thanks again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, if that&#8217;s just a riff, I need a new guitar <img src='http://pastoralia.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>I apologize if my post seemed a bit confrontational.  That&#8217;s not what I meant.  I am one of those people who scowls and pulls his lip when he thinks.  I appreciate your post and your response, and I&#8217;m glad I followed Stephy&#8217;s callout here.  I hope some other of her readers do, too.  She seems to have many that are smart and sharp and thoughtful.</p>
<p>Thanks for your restatements and clarifications and reminders.  </p>
<p>On the one hand, especially in the intellectualized and the abstract, it is not that difficult for me to appreciate compassion for Haitians or alcoholics.  How much more difficult to keep Robertson in mind as someone in need of grace, since he is so self-assured in his proclamation of what it is!  Some kind of statement seems appropriate, but I see you are right in how closely we must examine and suspect its source and manner and remember, &#8220;that we ourselves have only been (re)included because of repentance and forgiveness&#8221;.</p>
<p>I especially appreciate your putting it for me in the terms of my own question: &#8220;It is not the incredulous denouncement of the self-righteous Pharisee over the tax collector who’s prayer is &#8216;Thank you God for not making me like him!&#8217;&#8221;</p>
<p>It seems like a lot of time and energy and thought you topical bloggers expend, that people like me flit through and blithely consume.  So, thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-548</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 03:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=961#comment-548</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Bill&lt;/strong&gt; - Great questions. It &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; all rather abstract isn&#039;t it? Well, it was more of a riff on Schumacher&#039;s ideas than an attempt to flesh out implications. I was mainly trying to remind us that the world, humanity, and scripture are complex rather than simple - therefore requiring divergent thinking - and that the recognition of complexity requires an act of humility that self-identifies with the other. I&#039;m not saying divergence is synonymous with forgiveness or tolerance. At times it may lead to that. At other times it may not.  

Your point about Christ&#039;s selective practice of exclusion is well-taken. I would say Jesus was an extremely divergent leader, which is exactly what put him into hot water with the Pharisees and others. Like the Pharisees, I think Robertson should be denounced, &lt;em&gt;but&lt;/em&gt; our exclusion of him should be done with the full awareness that we ourselves have only been (re)included because of repentance and forgiveness. So our denouncement of Uncle Pat should be like the denouncement of an alcoholic a &lt;em&gt;recovering&lt;/em&gt; alcoholic. A denouncement full of pity, compassion, and perhaps some righteous frustration. It is not the incredulous denouncement of the self-righteous Pharisee over the tax collector who&#039;s prayer is &quot;Thank you God for not making me like him!&quot; 

...Which, frankly, I felt I was hearing quite a lot immediately after Robertson&#039;s comments. I think progressive-minded Christians of various kinds are so eager to be free of the trappings of fundamentalism that we&#039;ve forgotten we&#039;re just another branch on the same family tree. 

Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I think you&#039;ve added something important to this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Bill</strong> &#8211; Great questions. It <em>is</em> all rather abstract isn&#8217;t it? Well, it was more of a riff on Schumacher&#8217;s ideas than an attempt to flesh out implications. I was mainly trying to remind us that the world, humanity, and scripture are complex rather than simple &#8211; therefore requiring divergent thinking &#8211; and that the recognition of complexity requires an act of humility that self-identifies with the other. I&#8217;m not saying divergence is synonymous with forgiveness or tolerance. At times it may lead to that. At other times it may not.  </p>
<p>Your point about Christ&#8217;s selective practice of exclusion is well-taken. I would say Jesus was an extremely divergent leader, which is exactly what put him into hot water with the Pharisees and others. Like the Pharisees, I think Robertson should be denounced, <em>but</em> our exclusion of him should be done with the full awareness that we ourselves have only been (re)included because of repentance and forgiveness. So our denouncement of Uncle Pat should be like the denouncement of an alcoholic a <em>recovering</em> alcoholic. A denouncement full of pity, compassion, and perhaps some righteous frustration. It is not the incredulous denouncement of the self-righteous Pharisee over the tax collector who&#8217;s prayer is &#8220;Thank you God for not making me like him!&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8230;Which, frankly, I felt I was hearing quite a lot immediately after Robertson&#8217;s comments. I think progressive-minded Christians of various kinds are so eager to be free of the trappings of fundamentalism that we&#8217;ve forgotten we&#8217;re just another branch on the same family tree. </p>
<p>Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I think you&#8217;ve added something important to this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-544</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 01:23:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pastoralia.org/?p=961#comment-544</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jason, for this great read.  Quite a lot to chew on.

I&#039;m with you almost all the way to the end regarding divergent thinking and its relationship to Jesus and gospel.  But I need help getting all the way.  Equating compassion for post-disaster Haitians and empathy for fat, rich, judgmental Pat Robertson is a bit abstract for me.  I&#039;m also wondering if you think there is a difference between questioning, denouncing, and forgiving Robertson.  (I think you probably do, but I did not see it delineated in your post.)

It seems to me imperative that Pat Robertson&#039;s nonsense be denounced by Christians.  Agreed not ridiculed, not crucified, but definitely, clearly, denounced.  When I think about what Paul would say about such stiff-necked and continuous foolishness as Robertson&#039;s, I wonder if it wouldn&#039;t be, &quot;have nothing to do with him.&quot;

Question: would you consider Christ&#039;s vehement and acidic treatment of the religious leaders of his day convergent and inappropriate?  Yes, he forgave them (that the forgiveness comes much later in the narrative seems important, too), but he pulled no punches in accusing them.  There seem to be some parallels to me between their behavior and Robertson&#039;s.  Admittedly, I&#039;m no Messiah, who can see into the human heart; I seem hardly to know my own.  Yet that doesn&#039;t seem like a good reason for inaction.

So what are you advocating a Christian, public response to Pat Robertson be?  Or perhaps, as I am not a member of Robertson&#039;s denomination and immediate fellowship, there is no difference between private and public response?  Or do we, forgiving him, remain silent and let his horrible words and fearful image of God fill the conversation space?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jason, for this great read.  Quite a lot to chew on.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m with you almost all the way to the end regarding divergent thinking and its relationship to Jesus and gospel.  But I need help getting all the way.  Equating compassion for post-disaster Haitians and empathy for fat, rich, judgmental Pat Robertson is a bit abstract for me.  I&#8217;m also wondering if you think there is a difference between questioning, denouncing, and forgiving Robertson.  (I think you probably do, but I did not see it delineated in your post.)</p>
<p>It seems to me imperative that Pat Robertson&#8217;s nonsense be denounced by Christians.  Agreed not ridiculed, not crucified, but definitely, clearly, denounced.  When I think about what Paul would say about such stiff-necked and continuous foolishness as Robertson&#8217;s, I wonder if it wouldn&#8217;t be, &#8220;have nothing to do with him.&#8221;</p>
<p>Question: would you consider Christ&#8217;s vehement and acidic treatment of the religious leaders of his day convergent and inappropriate?  Yes, he forgave them (that the forgiveness comes much later in the narrative seems important, too), but he pulled no punches in accusing them.  There seem to be some parallels to me between their behavior and Robertson&#8217;s.  Admittedly, I&#8217;m no Messiah, who can see into the human heart; I seem hardly to know my own.  Yet that doesn&#8217;t seem like a good reason for inaction.</p>
<p>So what are you advocating a Christian, public response to Pat Robertson be?  Or perhaps, as I am not a member of Robertson&#8217;s denomination and immediate fellowship, there is no difference between private and public response?  Or do we, forgiving him, remain silent and let his horrible words and fearful image of God fill the conversation space?</p>
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		<title>By: stephy</title>
		<link>http://pastoralia.org/culture/pat-robertson-falls/comment-page-1#comment-540</link>
		<dc:creator>stephy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2010 18:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>True dat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True dat.</p>
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