The author made a slight error that was repeated by others and actually is a regurgitation of church doctrine. I also believe this why there is so much confusion around these concepts. Please note in the parable of the sheep and goats wasn’t talking about who is saved it was talking about who gets an inheritance. If one looks up and follows the words save saves salvation… and inherit inheritance.. in the bible, you’ll find the two concepts are treated differently. Although one is the logical conclusion of the other they are not the same thing. In Christianese though they are interchangeable as exemplified above. Thus where so much confusion enters in.
Another example would be the book of Galatians which main point is salvation by grace and not works. but in Chapter 5 Paul makes in perfectly clear who will not ‘inherit’ the kingdom v21. Paul speaks as such in nearly half his letters. Saved and Inherit are different. happy studies, strength in application.

“This question reminds me of Nineveh in the book of Jonah. Here is a group of people who did not “know” God – as in they did not have the Torah, the temple, priests or anything usually associated with the people of God….meaning that they obeyed the command of God and worship Him alone (as seen in the declaration of the king [Jonah 3:8]). This led to a covenant loyalty of God as see through God’s grace in not destroying them – all the while not really knowing YHWH!”

Good point! I didn’t think of that (or other situations like that). In that case, I could definitely understand the possibility of how one could not KNOW God but could be known BY Him. Thanks for the reminder.

Rick:

“I explain that Jesus was, indeed, consistent in his message that God cares for all, loves all, wants to heal all, and is never going to give up on anyone until the very last, lost sheep is saved.”

God absolutely does *indeed* care for ALL of his creations – Especially the ones He made in His image….human beings. However, there is still that freedom of choice that God has given to us all and although God would love *nothing* more to see every last soul (from the beginning of time to the end of time) saved – we still have a choice to accept that salvation or reject it. If rejected then what other choice does God have left but to honour their choices and not allow them into the place in which they clearly want NO part of….Heaven.

I have a cousin who claims to be an atheist. I love that man like a brother (in fact – he was the closest blood relation to a brother I had growing up). I want nothing more than to see him come to Christ – and I’m NOT giving up on him. However, he – through his obvious denial of the existence of Christ, as well as blaspheming against Christ and the Kingdom of God, not to mention through his continual belittlement of believers of Christ and the Bible which he calls “an outdated book of fairytails and lies” (something to that worded extent) – I don’t see my cousin (in all of his pain and arrogance) accepting Christ any time soon. IF ever. This breaks my aunt’s heart (who raised him in a Christian home) as well as the rest of us but I’ve come to the place that this is his choice and while I’m still trying to open his mind and heart ever so gently – I have accepted his right to his choice even though it may very well mean we will be separated for all eternity.

Verse 43 sticks out like a heavily bleeding sore thumb and for a very good reason–it’s an interpolation!

There is just no way, after a very long story in which Jesus tried so hard to explain how much he empathizes with human suffering, so much so that he says we ought to think of even the “least” as if s/he were him…that he could turn right around and all in the same breath say, “Oh, but one day I’m going to be the direct cause of the worst suffering ever!”

That makes no sense, does it?

Well, the explanation for this contradictory statement is simple–Jesus never said it!!! It’s an interpolation that was, in all likelihood, inserted by a Greek Christian scribe while making a copy of the text, totally distorting the message of the originally inspired autograph!

Sadly, though, because these few verses that place Hell on Jesus’ lips serve the interests of people who feel threatened by the real message of Jesus, that we ought to care for those in need, those suffering, even those who made big mistakes that landed them in jail, even the “least,” they would have us believe that God is ultimately going to give up on most of humanity and let them have it big time! From there, it makes it easy for them to deceive believers into thinking it’s not all that bad to get a head start on hurting people, or at least, not helping the hurting.

I’ve actually written an entire book on this topic–Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There’s No Such Place As Hell, (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of Did Jesus Believe in Hell?, one of the most compelling chapters in my book at http://www.thereisnohell.com), and it in, I explain that Jesus was, indeed, consistent in his message that God cares for all, loves all, wants to heal all, and is never going to give up on anyone until the very last, lost sheep is saved.

“…(by) wholehearted covenant loyalty to YHWH, exclusive worship of him, and careful obedience to his laws (Is 56:4-6)”

In effect, the followers of Christ as those who a) pledge their lives to Christ (Rm 10:9-10), b) worship only Him and no other (Mt 22:37), and c) obey His commands (Jn 14:15). If we forget one or more of those items, we lose track of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and the people of God.

As regards to the questions posed:

1. How is it possible to know Christ, but not be known by him? (Which is abundantly clear in these passages)

People may “know” Christ in that they know and obey his commands – or they may has pledged their lives to Him at some point. But if they “forget” to worship only Him – then they, run the risk of not being known by God. Thank about the warnings Israel received for worshiping idols while offering sacrifices at the temple (“obedience” to the law) and knowing who God is (Abrahamic covenant).

2. Is it possible to not know Christ, yet still be known by him? (Which seems to be insinuated)

This question reminds me of Nineveh in the book of Jonah. Here is a group of people who did not “know” God – as in they did not have the Torah, the temple, priests or anything usually associated with the people of God. In fact, all they had was the word of a crazy prophet who wondered through the streets telling them to repent or the YHWH (the god of one of their enemies) was going to destroy them. Amazingly, the people of Nineveh repented – meaning that they obeyed the command of God and worship Him alone (as seen in the declaration of the king [Jonah 3:8]). This led to a covenant loyalty of God as see through God’s grace in not destroying them – all the while not really knowing YHWH!

Don Richardson’s book “Eternity in Their Hearts” follows in this trend by giving detail examples of God’s work in various cultures outside of Israel. For example, the Inca’s ruling class worshiped a supreme God that sounds just like YHWH – yet these where people who had no contact with Israel or Christians. In other words, they where people who did not “know” Christ in the sense of having the written Bible, but from all accounts, God knew them.

3. How is this knowledge of us by God through our service to him still a function of grace? (Which, it absolutely must be)

Israel was called by grace to be an example of the Holy Lord to the rest of the world. It is the same for us today – we are called or elected by God to live lives that will reflect His character so that all of humanity will come to call Him Lord. If we stray from that path and worship other gods and/or disobey His commandment, then we forfeit the covenant of grace given to us by God. As both Micah (6:8) and James (2:20) said, it is not enough just to be under the grace of God – we must live it out

It is a dance between the election of God and the freewill of humanity – a dance that we can not understand this side of the second return of Jesus.

…nice!

1) I find it tough to accept the idea that Jesus was referring to disciples as “the least of these,” mostly because the context doesn’t make sense. He’s fielding questions from his disciples and speaking to them. Having said that, I do think “the least of these” includes disciples of Christ, especially leaders. That’s what much of my argument is in the (neglected) series on paid clergy. So, even if that’s what it means, I don’t think it changes my basic proposition here.

2) I’m glad Geoff brought a little balance. I want to say that I am in no way dismissing the idea of intimate knowledge of Christ. I’m a big believer in that kind of life (technically, I’m a charismatic and have been significantly influenced by Brother Lawrence). But, I do think the idea of reversing the epistemological direction and order of salvific knowledge is an intriguing and perhaps promising idea. I think it potentially provides a way of dispensing with the Gnostic tendencies of Reformed theology and the Mystical tendencies of Catholic (in their own way) and Evangelicals (in their own way).

One can know *of* Christ and speak his name in belief (after all you can believe in anything/anyone’s existence but it doesn’t mean you’re committed your heart, soul and life to them). However, (and I remembered a sermon about this last night as I was going to bed and looked up the word “knew” in Matt 7 – yes, I cheated) one can be withholding approving connection/relationship with him as the Greek word “eido” suggests: (I (Christ) have never been in approving connection with you). Then again – I’m sure this sounds very familiar to you.

Really, once we have truly accepted Christ as our Saviour, then we *have* given Christ “approval” in “connecting” with us so really, it doesn’t seem that followers of Christ should get too worried over this passage. (at least, I’m hoping not)

2. Is it possible to not know Christ, yet still be known by him? (Which seems to be insinuated)

Is it possible to misunderstand who Christ is and still be known by him? Sure. Is it possible to not have Christ in our lives as our personal Saviours and still be known by him? I really don’t see how that would be possible. Actually, *if* you mean it the latter way….that would seem to contradict the teachings of the Bible itself. Then again, I could always be misreading.

3. How is this knowledge of us by God through our service to him still a function of grace? (Which, it absolutely must be)

Hmmmm – well – once when allow and give him “approving connection” with us, we are saved by his grace because of our faith in him. But as James pointed out (I think it was in James – if memory is serving me correctly) – our works (or service to him – and others) is evidence of our faith and quite frankly evidence of our love for him.

I don’t know – that’s my two cents.

In our congregation we sing a version of St. Patrick’s Breatsplate and it made me think that, indeed, when “Christ is in me” (personal relationship), then, BAM, we also find that he is “before me”, “behind me,” “below me” and “above me.” The the “heart of those I love” and even “in the strange.”

I guess, for me, when Christ is known in worship (made possible by the Spirit), we find we also know him everywhere else, in this I know that we are known by Him.

i think 1 john 4 speak a bit to this too, albeit in a different way.